The best clothing combinations for backpacking or hiking?

[Ethan A.]

I have always thought technical hoodies made very versatile pieces. I use thin merino for base layers (Ibex) but prefer light fleece for my general purpose midlayer for the weight savings (the merino pieces like the Shak tend to be heavier).

1) Does anyone know how the Patagonia R1 Hoody (98% polyester 2% spandex) would compare for warmth with a Powerstretch Hoody, which has nylon mixed in to aid with moisture management and a little wind resistance? I have an old R1 top, not the hoody, and the material is a little denser and heavier than a polartec powerstretch zip top. The material used in my R1 from several years ago is the same mix as the material Patagonia uses in the R1 today. I find that R1 zip top is a little warmer and heavier than my powerstretch zip top, but less wind resistant (though the powerstretch top is not highly wind resistant and I always wear my Patagonia Houdini wind jacket with it in windy conditions.

Note that there are different types and thicknesses of powerstretch with different percentages of polyester and nylon and stretch material. Generally, more polyester is warmer while more nylon moves moisture better and offers more wind resistance.

2) Can anyone recommend a merino hoody that offers the same warmth for weight in the same weight range (around 9-10 ounces) as the Patagonia R1 Hoody?

A good light hoody is an item I'd love to add to my kit.

Thanks for the very informative post.

[Christopher Plesko]

The only way you'll find a merino hoody near 9oz is with a woman's smartwool columbine hoody. I've worn my wife's and it's much lighter than my Men's medium Shadow hoody. I like it but it's not quite long enough to be perfect. These may be discontinued like the Shadow too.

[Ethan A.]

This is an example of a Powerstretch Hoody of similar weight:

http://www.cloudveil.com/mens/pullovers/run+dont+walk+hoodie–CV06614/

[Ethan A.]

Hi Chris,

How tight is that women's medium? I usually wear a men's Large (42 in chest) – I'm 6ft 185 lbs. Can't imagine squeezing into a top that fits my wife (she's a size 8 and also wears medium tops).

Also, how warm is it compared to the same weight in the R1 material?

[Christopher Plesko]

well since I can get into a men's small (5'11" 150-155lbs) the women's medium isn't tight, just not quite as long as I'd like. In your case you'd have to find a women's XL at least and even that might not be big enough.

I can't compare it to an R1 yet, I've got one coming but it's not here yet. I ordered though a local store and they don't have their shipment yet.

[Richard Nisley]

Mountainwalker – Power Dry comes in three basic weights of light (3.1 oz/yd2), medium (5.1 oz/yd2), and heavy (6.3 oz/yd2). Power Stretch is available in 6.7 oz/yd2, 7.2 oz/yd2, and 7.3 oz/yd2. My Patagonia R1 uses a 6.5 oz /yd2 recycled version of the 6.3 oz/yd2 material and is .869 clo. My Ragged Mountain Power Stretch Hoody uses the 6.7 oz/yd2 and is .953 clo. In other words, my comparable weight Power Stretch is approximately 9.7% warmer than my Power Dry.

My R1 hoody uses 6.5 oz/yd2 Power Dry material. This material has an approximate clo per oz/yd2 of .138 as does the Power Stretch. Merino Wool averages a.084 clo/oz/ yd2. For the same warmth, any Merino wool garment will weigh .138 / .084 = 164% the weight of the R1 Power Dry or Power Stretch Hoodys. The Merino wool hoodys will also take much longer to dry if you get them wet.

[Ethan A.]

1) To my knowledge, in addition to differences in thickness, there are differences in power stretch composition – does this matter for your considerations?

Power stretch is available in these and I’m sure other general Polartec as well as proprietary blends:
88% Polyester, 12% Spandex – example – Cloudveil power stretch hoody
64% polyester/24% nylon/12% spandex – REI women’s OXT power stretch tights
Fabric49% polyester/38% nylon/13% spandex – REI men’s power stretch tights
(I’m guessing more nylon is used in power stretch pants than in tops for durability)

I find a lot of variability in power stretch garments, which is why I wanted to know better how to compare them. For example, my wife has an REI power stretch hoody we found at a deep REI sale that is very light and well made, but very thin – which means power stretch must be made in a an even lighter formulation than 6.7 oz/yd2. By contrast, I have an old (maybe 8-10 years) Patagonia power stretch jacket which is a monster and indestructible – clearly uses A LOT of nylon and is thicker, more abrasion-resistant and wind-resistant than any other power stretch piece I have ever seen. So much so I don’t use it as a light piece but as an all around beater jacket and it looks good as new. It almost feels like putting on a light version of a neoprene jacket as the surface is so tough.

2) That said, I went back and tried them while clacking at my keyboard and indeed my Cloudveil power stretch zip top is warmer than my Patagonia R1 zip top, matching your general calculations. I’m just trying to find out if the Cloudveil hoody is the same composition.

3) Given the extra warmth offered by power stretch, given a choice, for your most flexible system, would you stick with the R1 Hoody or use a power stretch hoody? Would the extra warmth of the power stretch hoody make it less versatile?

4) My kit – I’ve always refined these basics because they are the most important elements of my kit. My wife and I take them everywhere and in more than a few situations the extra warmth and versatility made all the difference. The balaclava has come in super handy and at 2 oz we always take it. Personally I now use:

Base layer – Ibex light Pacifica l/s zip top (6.5 oz) – except in warmest times where I use lightest Patagonia silk capilene or a short sleeve Ibex zip top, though I find wool a bit too hot for the warmest most humid days)

Midlayer – Cloudveil Power stretch zip top (10 oz) with light Hind power stretch balaclava (2 oz) OR Old special edition thick R2 base later jacket (large weighs in at only 12 oz. with full zip) with the balaclava

Wind layer – Patagonia Houdini (3 oz.)

Insulation layer: Montbell hooded U.L. Thermawrap Parka (about 13 oz. size large) – the WARMEST synthetic garment for the weight I’ve ever owned.

[Richard Nisley]

EJ – 1) The Power Stretch composition and thickness both matter for your unique chosen application:

Style: 7416
The smooth, tightly constructed 160 denier Cordura nylon face provides superior abrasion and wind resistance. A semi-velour polyester back provides for good wicking, 3-season warmth, and next to skin comfort. Fabric has wicking/siphoning properties for moving moisture away from the body and a odor reducing treatment to inhibit the growth of odor-causing bacteria. Features four-way Lycra“ stretch for unrestricted movement. Ideal for climbing, mountain biking, and equestrian pursuits, where superior abrasion resistance, maximum freedom of movement, and clean profiles are desired.
7.2 oz/yd2
1.38 clo/oz yd2 (my estimate from averaging other Power Stretch version manikin tests)
Stretch W/H 80/80

Style: 7622
Double faced polyester velour with 4- way Lycra® stretch. The warmest Power Stretch® fabric. Lycra® blends give 4-way stretch for unrestricted movement. Fabric has moisture management properties and an odor reducing treatment for next to skin comfort. Ideal as a heavy, expedition weight underwear or for general cold weather layering.
7.3 oz/yd2
1.34 clo/oz yd2 (manikin test)
Stretch W/H 100/100

Style: 7767
A durable nylon/Lycra® face, with a non-pill, low pile polyester velour back. BiPolar construction allows the placement of different fibers front and back to handle varied conditions. The durable, smooth nylon face resists wind and abrasion, and allows for easy layering. The inner pile (back) has wicking/siphoning properties for quick drying and moving moisture away from the body, along with odor reducing protection from odor-causing bacteria. Lycra® blends give 4-way stretch for unrestricted movement. Ideal for cold weather first layer or next to skin applications such as winter running/cycling,/cross-country skiing tights, and accessories.
6.7 oz/yd2
1.42 clo/oz yd2 (manikin test)
Stretch W/H 60/60

This #7767 material is close to what is used in my Ragged Mountain Hoody. I prefer it because it has the lowest weight and the most warmth for the weight by not dealing with heavy abrasion protection. I use a wind shirt or hard shell to protect it against hard abrasion when required.

2) I own and use a Smartwool Merino hoody, an Ibex Shak Smartwool hoody, a Power Dry Patagonia R1 hoody, and a Power Stretch Ragged Mountain hoody. Reference my 9/5/07 17:15:50 chart post for this response. For backpacking MET levels from about 45F to 0F, I find the R1 Power Dry hoody / windshirt combination provides optimal variable thermal balance with the least amount of weight. This combination also provides the highest safety margin if they get wet and need to be expediently dried by hand wringing. A Power Stretch hoody would provide a comparable comfortable temperature range but in order to not sweat, its comfort range would start at a lower temperature or lower MET level.

[Bill B]

Taking into account that each of us has a different temp. range for a given piece of clothing. What's the warmest temp you would use the Patagonia R1 Hoody in (Zipped down, sleeves up)?

[Richard Nisley]

Bill – If you are hiking relatively level ground at a moderate pace, it is comfortable from about 70F Down. If you are backpacking with a 21 – 42 lb pack through mountainous terrain, then is comfortable from about 45F down.

[Bill B]

Richard,

Thanks for the reply. Most of my trips are backpacking moderate terrain w/ 20 lbs or less (hopefully much less) in 75 deg down and I suspected that the R1 was pushing it for the upper end of those temps.
Thanks!

[Ethan A.]

Richard, how do you think this Cloudveil power stretch hoody below would compare with your Ragged Mountain power stretch hoody and Patagonia R1 hoody for warmth, drying time, wind resistance and range of use (for the last of these I believe you've said the R1 would have the greatest range of use)? I've seen the Ragged Mountain power stretch hoody, it's been used by SF soldiers.

Note that the Cloudveil Run Don't Walk pullover hoody uses material that is 88% Polyester, 12% Spandex, 231 g/m2 and weighs 9 oz. in a size medium.

http://www.cloudveil.com/mens/pullovers/run+dont+walk+hoodie–CV06614/

The Patagonia R1 Hoody is supposed to weigh 309 g (10.9 oz) in a size medium.

How much does your full-zip Ragged Mountain Hoody weigh? I believe my wife's REI power stretch full zip hoody is made of similar power stretch material to your Ragged Mountain hoody (thinner with low abrasion resistance).

I don't think the weight penalty would have been that great to make a full zip for the Patagonia R1 or the Cloudveil. Going with a full zip improves range of use and without hand warming pockets the penalty for extending the zip probably is only 1 to 1.5 ounces. Given that the Patagonia R1 is a climbing piece, I could understand avoiding a zipper near the harness.

I have to replace an older piece I've really worn down and I'm trying to decide between the above options quick, as I managed to snag one of the few remaining R1 hoodies in my size and I'm keeping the tags on for now.

Really appreciate your advice. I'm fanatical about my core pieces, especially now that I've got them dialed in so well.

[Richard Nisley]

EJ – My guess is that the Cloudveil and Ragged Mountain are approximately equivalent garments. I would have to see a Couldveil to be sure. My only issue with the Ragged Mountain is that they didn't tailer the material from the chin to the neck like they did on the R1. Large air gaps tend to billow out warm air. The Power Stretch garments are a little warmer and fully featured to justify their additional .5 oz. All weights are for my size L garments.

Smartwool – 12.5 oz
R1 – 13 oz
Ragged Mountain (full zip and crotch strap) – 13.5 oz
Ibex Shak – 21 oz

[Richard Nelridge]

Hi Richard,

Unless my scale is off, my digital scale (measures in .2oz or 5g increments) indicated that my large Patagonia R1 Hoody weighs either 12.2 or possibly 12.3 oz. Mine may weigh a little less than yours but within the weight range for this piece of apparel.

Also if you did not pick up on it, Cloudveil indicates their Walk Don't Run Power Stretch Hoody weighs 9 oz in medium. Their weight measurement could be in error however.

Rich

[Ethan A.]

Rich, you are probably right about the Cloudveil weight being off. However, I was shocked to learn a few years back that a Cloudveil Large jacket I got on eBay weighed in at almost 2 ounces BELOW the Cloudveil weight for a medium listed on their website.

Richard, what do you use your Ibex Shak Hoody for and what do you use your Smartwool hoody for? My wife and I have Ibex softshell pants (Guidelite – they are so comfortable over such a wide range below 60F that we have them on most of the winter) and base layers, and I'm a big fan of the company, but we stayed away from the Shak because of the heavy weight – we always knew we could have warmer insulation at a little more than half the weight of the Shak.

Also, what type of supplex pants do you use, and are they zipoff?

[Richard Nisley]

EJ – I have taken a number of multi-month expeditions. I characterize the clothing I choose for them as expedition wear. Most of my trips are in more benign environments.

After a hearing a few, "… that top really looks nice…" combined with great comfort, both of my Merino wool tops became my non-expedition outdoor favorites. For expeditions, the much more pedestrian looking, but the lighter, more thermally efficient, and quicker drying Power Dry and Power Stretch tops are what I prefer.

Regarding Supplex nylon pants, I make the same two environment distinctions. I use non-zip-off Ex Oficio with integral mesh briefs for non expedition wear because of their good looks and comfort. The non-zip-off Rail Rider X-Treme Adventure Pants are my expedition standard.

[Ethan A.]

Richard, thanks for confirming what I always thought. I love the merino wool garments I have, but anything beyond base layer – one very thin l/s (Ibex Pacifica) for most conditions and a thicker one for the coldest weather (Ibex l/s zip about 11 oz, forget what it's called), and merino/cordura softshell pants (Ibex Climawool Guidelite and Backcountry pant) I wound up using casually or selling. And I wind up using the heavier top and heavier merino softshell pant for day trips. Not as thermally efficient for the weight and I find heavier merino takes much longer to dry (thin merino base layers dry as fast as synthetic).

[Ethan A.]

Richard, I'm curious, have you ever run any tests on Polartec power stretch or wind pro with Harface? These garments tend to be a little more water resistant and a bit more wind resistant than regular power stretch or wind pro and just about as breathable. And a lot more durable (no outside pilling or snagging). Polartech Power Stretch or Polartec Wind Pro with Hardface is a great option when you need more durability or just want a fleece jacket or bottoms to keep from pilling and snagging.

Also have you run any tests on thin Wind Pro?

My Arcteryx Fugitive Hoody, which I picked up in a trade, has a full zip and handwarmer pockets and weighs in at only about 15 ounces – that's not a lot heavier than the Patagonia R1 Hoody, which is heavier than I thought. In fact, if this piece was made without handwarmer pockets, it would probably have come in only an ounce more than the R1 Hoody. I'd describe the material under the Hardface coating as a light wind pro fleece.

[Ethan A.]

BTW, I held up the R1 fabric to a light and looked from the inside out and couldn't believe how thin the fabric is in the slots between the grids. Practically see-through. This would have to make it more breathable and more comfortable at higher temps than power stretch.

[Ethan A.]

You were right – the R1 Hoody cut is excellent all over – body, arms, shoulders, neck and head. I hope to compare it with the Cloudveil power stretch hoody soon.

[Brett .]

Will Patagonia sell the R1s in 2008 again? They are selling out on the website despite Winter being a few months away. Patagonia has not answered this email question yet; anyone know?

[Ethan A.]

Hi Brett,

You can still get a few of them through the stores. Call up Patagonia during business hours – ask which stores still have them in stock. I got one out of maybe 10 left in my size nationwide (and best was having a gift card for it). Also, a few online retailers may carry it as well. But the Patagonia stores are your best bet. Don't let Patagonia call their stores for you – get the telephone numbers from them and call them directly.

Best of luck!

[Christopher Plesko]

A local mountaineering store claims another shipment is on it's way. I'm on the list for one as soon as they show. Sure I could order one online but I want to try the sizing between a medium and small so I figured I'd support the local store.

[Richard Nelridge]

Hi Brett,

REI still lists the Patagonia R1 Hoody as available in Medium. Also, AJs still shows them available in S, M, and L (not familiar with them, but they list the item as available).

Here is the Link:

http://tinyurl.com/yvtvnb

Rich

[Don Wilson]

I believe the R1 hoody is still in the product lineup for 2008. I love it too. Versatile, warm, excellent cut. I'll be taking mine on the BPL Wilderness Trekking course next month.

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