This is my wilderness pack

[Marko Botsaris]

"How much calories does a man need on average per day to carry 17 kg for 19 miles/day?"

There are lots of post on this, but when sedentary then very approximately men about 2000, women 1800. That is when doing nothing at all. When backpacking hard, such as going up and down mountains with a pack that includes 30 lbs of food, expect this to be 4000-6000 cal a day. Lots of people such as myself, who don't mind loosing a few lbs are willing to do longer trips with 3000 cal/day, but if you are planning on doing 20 miles a day with a heavy pack this may eventually cause you to "bonk", or at the least fill your dream with images of food. Especially if you are already thin.

In the end you have to have the experience to know what works and is comfortable for you to answer that question. But 2000 is too little.

Also, what about water? Much more of a concern. specially in southern Greece, and especially in the mid to late summer you may have a hard time finding surface water. You will have to plans that much more carefully, and you may have to carry a lot of water in places. Just another reason to reconsider your plan/need to carry so much – you may need to carry a lot of water too.

By the way, while Greece does not have a cultural tradition of tramping that I know of, what it DOES have is monasteries pretty much everywhere, AND a tradition of letting people stay overnight for a nominal fee. Yet another way to do things in a way that seems more adapted to the local parameters.

[Bunta Fujiwara]

"By the way, while Greece does not have a cultural tradition of tramping that I know of, what it DOES have is monasteries pretty much everywhere, AND a tradition of letting people stay overnight for a nominal fee."

Why would i do that?My problem is not where to sleep.
Unless you mean i wont carry any sleeping equipment at all to save weight.Nah,that means i will never be able to leave city.

[Link .]

Where in Greece will you be starting and will you be going on a trail or will it be an off trail journey?

[Bunta Fujiwara]

@Link Lets say middle.

I estimate it will be mostly off trail,about 70%off/30%on.

[Link .]

You are doing about 70% off trail and you are not sure you can make great use of maps ? Sounds dangerous .

From your 6th post on this thread:
"Not sure i can make great use of maps,but will have some."

Are you very experienced with a map and compass ? It's pretty important !

[David Drake]

>"If i manage a 9kg base weight…"

Why insist on such a heavy BW? If you get it down to 5 kg, that gives you either significantly lower starting and finishing weights or (prob. more important) a better margin for carrying enough water.

>"…16 kg food/water,i would have enough food for at least 24-26 days right?"

Wrong, at least if your plan is to cover 19 miles/30 km per day. Even if that 16 kg is food only (no water) and your menus are very calorie-dense (4.6 Cal/gram–not a trivial thing to plan for, especially if you take food you'll actually want to eat day after day), you'll still have a little less than 3000 Cal/day.

Water weight will not be trivial, and will NOT decline like food weight–it will just fluctuate up and down during the day depending on distance between sources. I've never been to Greece, and have little experience hiking in arid conditions with little available water, but plenty here do. My guess (based on Marko's response above) is you may need carry 4-5 liters of water sometimes, if not more.

You're talking about covering 3/4 the distance in the same amount of time as the Arctic 1000. AND starting with a heavier pack, much less available water, and nothing like the experience. At the very least, you should be looking at how they planned for it, AND their experience with INCREASING calorie requirements over the length of the trip.

Also look at the plans/strategies of thru-hikers. AND read Marko's extremely patient responses several more times, esp. the parts about what is and is not culturally appropriate for the area.

There are more important questions here than how many pairs of socks you should take.

Edit to add: Yes–read all of Link's links on your other threads. She also routinely posts links to great resources for lowering your BW.

[Link .]

Bunta, I have given you many links to articles including the trip David mentions in his post above ( The Arctic 1000 ) so that you could try to see what other people have done . Look at my posts yesterday in your thread titled Long term Food calculations. I agree with David

There are more important questions here than how many pairs of socks you should take.

[Bunta Fujiwara]

The Arctic 1000 team is definitely sth of a benchmark.I still dont understand how they managed to have such low baseweight.
Is it because they shared gear between two people?

And what do you mean when you say culturally appropriate?
You think i dont know my country?

[Link .]

Did you read the article ?

The key to making 624 miles in 24 days carrying only one bag of food was carrying very little of anything else, and making darn sure what we did carry was very light. BackpackingLight.com's gear maven, Ryan Jordan, was instrumental in ferreting out the lightest gear for our expedition – the Cucoon overwear, the Oware megamid, and the ULA pack, for instance. Our "skin out weights" (total weight minus the food and the cameras) were on the order of 12 pounds, an exceptionally light base weight for walking halfway across Alaska, even if we did start with close to 59 pounds on our backs.

Besides lightweight, most of our gear did double duty – the dry bags worked as floatation as well as ground cloth; the foam pad was insulation when sleeping, a seat when snacking, and a literal wind-shield when the wet winds were howling; dental floss cleaned teeth and repaired shoes and pack.

There is a whole article I linked for you yesterday , the quote above is just a small portion.

[David Drake]

Bunta,

Apologies for assuming you weren't Greek. One of the reasons people on your threads have been asking so many questions is to try and get a sense of the context of what you are trying to do. That this is a trip in your home country is an important part of that context (as is your level of experience, planned distance per day, why you insist on no resupply, etc). Also (at least in my case) there's a genuine curiosity about what constitutes wilderness in Greece, what hiking conditions are like, what the tradition of cross-country walking is, plus use of campfires, tomahawks, etc.

I don't recall the exact BWs of the Arctic 1000 participants, but getting to 4.5-5 kg is not particularly difficult, esp. for warmer conditions. Mostly, it involves keeping the weight of your 'Big Three' (shelter, sleeping, packing) below a certain level, and then leaving out a lot of unnecessary other things. Again, the links Link routinely posts are a great resource. You can also look at the gear lists posted by many members under their forum profiles (I have one on mine, although the listed pack wouldn't work for an adventure like the one you're planning)–click on "Community Gear Lists" under "Community @ BPL" to the right.

Honestly, I hope the discussion here leads to a successful adventure of some sort on your part–I'd love to see the trip report and pictures if for no other reason than to be just a little more familiar with your part of the world.

edit: clarity for gear list link.

[Cameron Habib]

This sounds a lot like learning to ski by running a World Cup Super-G ski course: you may make it, you may not (most likely), but even if by some grace of god you do, is it really going to be that enjoyable? I know you came here for gear advice, and that I am by far the least qualified to give any, but just throwing in my $0.0001 anyways in saying that perhaps you should try to go on a few day hikes with a 60lbs bag and getting a bit more experience before you decide to spend a month doing so.

[Marko Botsaris]

Oh, well – if you speak Greek and live there that solves a lot of potential problems. I didn't want to assume. My worry was not WHERE you would sleep, just in the necessity of traveling in such a style in a place that does not absolutely require it – Alaska does, Greece, I do not think so. But if you want to travel that way as an experiment, OK.

Then I would say you need to start in this case with the route, not with the trivial details. Why? Because the controlling features are long term food, and especially short term water. What is the longest stretch without water? How do you know this? Will the water be safe to drink? Will it possibly dry up certain times of the year. How fast can you walk that section? Assume you will need in the summer 5 liters a day. That is about 11 lbs per day, plus the space and water containers to carry it. If your longest stretch is a day that doesn't sound like a problem for someone prepared to carry a lot of weight as you seem to be. But your gear list currently does not have the capability to carry much water.

It sound like a lot of planning, and it is. It is unfortunately the price of being totally independent, and it does remove a lot of the spontaneity – especially as much of the trip may not absolutely require it. On the other hand if you plan on touching "civilization" every few days then you don't have to worry about such details in advance too much – just pick up your (much lighter) pack, and go.

So yes it sounds like you can do 25 days provided you have a big enough pack to carry all the food and water you will need. If you live there you could also consider leaving some food caches along the route – leave a box of supplies a few places to pick up during the trip.

If you have actually carried that much weight for extended periods of time in the past, and know what you are in for, then you are fine. If you are calculating in the abstract I would recommend you fill up your pack with 25 days worth of food, all you gear, and the maximum water you will need between water supplies and go for an all day hike across country. Or maybe just use sandbags or something to get the approximate weight correct. If it still seems like the way you want to travel, then go for it, and enjoy your trip. As I said, I would love to see a trip report (and pictures) when you are done! It would be very interesting to read.

I think it is potentially a fantastic idea for a trip. A lot of the fun, at least in my view, would be in figuring out the optimal way to travel in the environment you plan to be in, and not in pre-imposing a style of travel designed for a very different environment.

[Nathan Wernette]

Lose the binoculars .4 lbs
lose the tacticool tomahawk at 1.75 pounds

thats two pounds off your base.

if you want something for survival try a sawvivor and a fixed blade knife like an ontario RAT7, you can process a lot of wood with those two items with minimal effort compared to a tomahawk.

the rat7 can even be fashioned into a spear for defensive purposes if you need it to be….

you really need about a half a pound of gorilla tape?

and lose the books at 1.5 pounds

I just saved you 4 pounds.

get some convertible pansy that weigh the same as your "sport pants" and lose the NB shorts,

there goes another half a pound.

lose the tooth paste and just brush your teeth w/o paste…

So i just saved you 5 pounds off your BW with the list you provided.

Also, usually with a base weight it involves only the items in your pack that are not consumables. so i'm assuming you are wearing your pants and socks and hat, etc. adjust your list accordingly to get a true sense of BW and then a full load out as well.

lose the belt at almost a pound as well

thats 6 pounds.

EDIT: i see no stove or rain gear. a small canister stove will only weigh about 5 oz or so. patagonia houdini at 4oz.

[Bunta Fujiwara]

Nathan:
"Lose the binoculars .4 lbs
lose the tacticool tomahawk at 1.75 pounds"

Ok,i drop the t-hawk for now.Not sure about binoculars.

"if you want something for survival try a sawvivor and a fixed blade knife like an ontario RAT7, you can process a lot of wood with those two items with minimal effort compared to a tomahawk."

Yeah,will have to do plenty research in knifes if i want to buy new one.I will go with only the SAK for now.It has an excellent saw.

"you really need about a half a pound of gorilla tape?"
Its really not much,its useful.

"get some convertible pansy that weigh the same as your "sport pants" and lose the NB shorts, "

Hm,not sure if i can find a pant that does everything in all conditions and weighs little and comfortable.

"lose the tooth paste and just brush your teeth w/o paste…"
No thanks.

"lose the belt at almost a pound as well"
Belt is only 1.37 oz.

"i see no stove or rain gear. a small canister stove will only weigh about 5 oz or so. patagonia houdini at 4oz."

I was thinking,do i need a wood stove?For the days i will be out there,i dont see the value of investing in a lightweight wood stove.Alcohol stoves,well i dont know,will have to calculate fuel etc…

I added my eVent jacket.Its not light sure,but i got it cheap (about 140 USD) and is quite breathable and durable.

[Justin Baker]

"Hm,not sure if i can find a pant that does everything in all conditions and weighs little and comfortable."

You are hiking in the summer. You only need some light nylon pants. You don't want anything waterproof or warm. Greece is a mediterranean climate meaning it will very rarely rain in the summer or fall, even if it does rain it won't be cold enough that you will care about wet legs.

Or better yet, just wear short and don't carry pants.

Base layer bottoms for the nights and sleeping.

I'm going to be really honest here, if you don't know what pants to carry in the summer you should not be backpacking more than an overnight at first. All of your posts have come off as incredibly silly and I'm starting to wonder if you are just a troll. You seem like you are either a kid or someone coming from the city who has very little outdoors experience. You talk about some long journey but you say you can't make much use out of maps You are embarrassing yourself.

[Bunta Fujiwara]

I know i dont need long pants for warmth.I just want them for protection from bugs,and bushes.
Not worried about wet feet.
If i was going only on trail,i would only have shorts.

When i am off trail,maps will help me in the general direction i am going,but more than that?What can i get out of them?

[Bob Moulder]

"All of your posts have come off as incredibly silly and I'm starting to wonder if you are just a troll."

Bingo.

Either way, a waste of time.

Unsubscribed.

[Jake D]

Troll or SAR case in the making..

[Ken Thompson]

It is a sure indicator that Spring is here. Get a thread or several like this every year. Ask for advice and then don't take any of it. Argue with those way more experienced, who are trying to save you from yourself.

Can't wait for the trip report. Or the Darwin awards.

[Nathan Wernette]

lose the bino's.

Convertible nylon hiking pants zip off into shorts…

a SAK is nice but that philips head driver, tooth pick, flat head screw driver, can wine corker will do well in the back country no? i had a leatherman i love and took it on one trip… won't do it again, never used it.

It has a maybe two inch saw??

look up a folding saw if you really want to process some wood. bacho, sawvivor, sven. My suggestion ditch the desire to make a fire. Don't need it, waste of energy. I let my desire to build a fire go last time i went hiking and we were fine. I can't justify 2+ pounds worth of gear for a camp fire.

gorilla tape is nice, but what about some cordage and super glue? I wrapped some gorilla tape on my nalgene and my pot nests very nicely on to it now. BUT consider super glue that can fix any tears you have in material and the cordage is way more versatile than duct tape.

you can go with an alky stove thats fine also, but you need a stove.

just things…

[Marko Botsaris]

I think at this point I would recommend before doing anything, or buying anything, borrow a pack that can handle the weight, put about 70 – 80 lbs of weight in the pack, and go walk 20 miles in the hills and mountains, preferably off trail as you say you intend. This will tend to focus your mind very quickly on many issues.

A lot of us on here would recommend a better way to do this that will be a lot more fun – start small and build up. Having your big goal for the future will be a good motivation. Get or make some cheap light gear and just go out there and try things out on shorter trips. One of the benefits of this method is you get experience right away, but don't have to start out solving the considerable logistical problems associated with being self-sufficient for very extended periods of time.

When that is done come back here, especially if you can at that point actually describe the specific issues you will face on your route, and how you will manage to provide for your basic needs on that route. The gear list reviews on here are ruthless, which is how they should be, and the only way to gain anything from it. To benefit from them at all you can't justify you need of some item by saying "it is useful". You would need to be able to say precisely how you will use an item and defend it in those terms when another better options is suggested. If you don't know EXACTLY why you need an item, and how you will use it, then you probably need knowledge and experience first. For example, if you read and learn the useful parts of your survival manual first you will not need to carry the book.

Another example, the issue of maps – your response shows you need a more knowledge and understanding there. They are not talking about "trail maps", they are talking about topo maps. These allow you to plan routes, find water, find the nearest town if necessary, avoid impassible areas, and so on. Having them and the ability to read them accurately most of us here would consider a prerequisite for doing long range "off trail" travel when you don't have personal knowledge of an area. When I lived in Greece for part of a year a few decades ago I was told by one friend that the complete lack of good maps of this type in the country (I was interested in doing something similar except not for 25 days without resupply) was due to many decades of fear of the Turks spying on military installations, and so on. I don't know if the situation is the same now in the age of google maps.

Greece is not Alaska. It's population density is about 200 times greater – similar to the state of Virginia in the US. It has a lot of beautiful, rugged landscape – the Taygetos mountains for example which I am a little familiar with since my family originally came from that region. However a trip of the length you are suggesting (20 miles x 25 days = 500 miles) anywhere in Greece would unfailingly force you to cross close to or through civilized areas many, many times. I mean the distance from Kalamata to Thessaloniki is only about 400 miles by road. So as asked many times, why not resupply? As we have been implying, a lot depends on the unknown details of your route.

Anyway, good luck.

[Justin Baker]

"When i am off trail,maps will help me in the general direction i am going,but more than that?What can i get out of them?"

You are new to hiking and you are planning to hike off trail!?!??!? That's crazy and dangerous. You need to put this trip on hold ASAP until you get more experience.

A map isn't just for hiking off trail, it shows you trails, camps, roads, towns, all things you need for a long journey.

[J Mag]

Sometimes I wish the internet didn't exist.

A trip like this would be a challenge for even the most experienced survivalist. It's like racing in a Formula 1 car when you don't even have a drivers license.

Back in my day, trolling meant something!

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