LIST: SUL below freezing possible?

[Gary Pikovsky]

Hi all,

Please have at it. I think this may be as light as possible. Def looking for suggestions.
Location: Mount Washington, NH
Conditions: Extreme winter, heavy wind around 100ph, temps -5F to 25F, windchill -50 to -75f at times
Altitude: 6000ft
Length:1-2 days
Overnights below treeline in non-windy spots

List
http://lighterpack.com/r/9e03ch

Thanks,
Gary

[Bob Gross]

I think the high wind is the worst part of the weather there.

But, what do I know? I've been up there only twice.

–B.G.–

[M G]

You are seriously under estimating how much you will need to drink with a 10oz container and no real snow melting ability.

[Gary Pikovsky]

Valid point about the water, for sure. But I have been up there many times and know of a number of open water sources so water amount is not really too much of a concern.

[Justin Baker]

I think your biggest issue is going to be good active layers that allow you to regulate your temperature easily.

Look at this thread:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=1435

[Gary Pikovsky]

That's a fantastic thread, love it. Reading through it now. It's dauntingly long – over a thousand posts. Anything that stood out to you and really made a difference?

[Gary Pikovsky]

Justin – regarding the active layers. Maybe you can suggest a better system.

So far, I usually sweat very little to none using the current system. I originally had Smartwool light-mid weight base layer, which was great, but didn't dry fast enough. Replace with Patagonia Cap 4 – even better breathability and much faster drying time. Negative – it stinks, unlike wool. A LOT.

The windshirt comes in and out during windy times to warm up the core. When temps dip into the low teens, the PossumDown sweater plus or minus possumdown vest on top add warmth and also high breathability. With the shell, it's comfy when moving down to 5-8F. Above that I switch to the down shell and hood. By that point I'm usually on exposed ridge, above treeline, covered head to toe because of the wind.

Seems to work well, but I think it could be better. Looking for suggestions to lighten up.

[Roger Caffin]

Of course.
Ryan Jordon managed a weekend some years ago in the snow with a 5 lb base weight. It can be done.
He had two problems:
* his stove arrangement was unstable, and the pot fell over
* it was too WARM, so he had to cope with wet snow – which he had not allowed for.

Cheers

I am not exactly sure how 13.25 pounds qualifies as "SUL".

At 13 pounds just about any trail in the entire USA can be done, summer or winter.

There are folks every year who do hiking in 5°f temperatures with not only sub 10 pounds, but sub 5 pounds.

So, "UL below freezing possible?"…. uhhh, yes… and even if you define SUL as 13 pounds.

[James Marco]

John, I think he was just asking if this was possible. As you say, some people do.

This is my problem with strict weight definitions for packing. SUL only includes your base weight. If SUL plus consumables is used for a definition, then everything that is used up can be excluded. Food, fuel and water are normally excluded. This could also exclude soap, AM drops, spare batteries, etc. Pack weight of 13.25pounds is good for any time, and *could* include SUL. Another "undefined" item is what you are wearing and what is in your pockets. Even pack weight does not pick that up, soo some use FSO (from skin out.) But, looking at his list, his pack, clothing, sleeping gear, shelter, cooking gear, etc all add up to around 8 pounds, I stopped after that, realizing what he was asking. I think you might have misunderstood also.

I agree with the others, more fuel and more water would be a lot better.

[Gary Pikovsky]

John,

I very much respect your writing, but the reader before is right. I'm not calling my weight SUL (just yet,) I'm trying to get there. What's more is a ton of my stuff is pro photo equipment.

However.

After modifying some things, my base weight is now 9lbs. Now, mind you, this is 9lbs in weather conditions that are similar to some days on Everest. Ryan Jordan's hike did not have near freezing temps with over 100mph winds. Wind chill conditions at Mt. Washington in past weeks were around -60 to -75F BELOW freezing.

Thus, I'm going to restate my main point. Can SUL be possible safely in truly extreme conditions? Extreme in every sense of the word. Frostbite in this weather is guaranteed in just a few seconds if you do things wrong. This is not summer conditions where you can get away with being slightly cold and close to the edge. You absolutely have to be warm, while not overheating. Thus, being fully decked from the start in head to toe VB gear won't work. That is why I'm asking all of you to please chip in with that in mind because I don't know how to possibly make through with less than 9lbs and be safe.

Will def add more water and fuel. What else? Can this list have a dramatic change and lose two-three pounds?

Thanks,
G

[Walter Carrington]

I have several concerns with the safety of your gear list:

How durable are your shell jacket and pants? Will they survive crawling on rock for a distance? If the wind is too high, you can't stand up and will need to crawl. Will they be waterproof crawling through puddles and wet snow? Will walking through branches and bushes below tree line rip them? Will they rip apart in very high winds? I'm skeptical of such light fabric in these conditions.

You need a good hood design for the high winds you may encounter; I can't tell from the pictures how good the zpacks hood is.

If you're doing this soon, you need to be prepared for rain and very wet conditions. You may be too dependent on down for the wet conditions we've been having. Wool or fleece hats and mittens would be a lot better than down mitts for warmth. Gloves and mittens get wet and get blown away in high winds, so you need spares. Also, you may not have enough flexibility in layering for the range of conditions you may encounter.

Hiking poles can be useful for walking in wind.

If you encounter cold temps I'm skeptical of the warmth of your foot gear. Will they be adequate for walking through wet snow and puddles followed by temps of 0F?

It's probably easier if the weather is guaranteed to dry and cold, but that's not the case this spring in the White Mtns. Today's forecast is for 1" to 3" of RAIN below 4000'!!!

You may need snowshoes, but you can probably find that out the morning you start.

I love how some of you guys took just ONE of my sentences and decided to make an issue out of it… and it was the least important of the four sentences I wrote.

[Gary Pikovsky]

John,

Sorry, no worries. Would be great to hear your thoughts on the above responses.

Gary

[Walter Carrington]

There was an avalanche on the summit cone of Mt. Washington on March 29. Check the avalanche forecast:
http://www.mountwashingtonavalanchecenter.org/

Can SUL be possible safely in truly extreme conditions?

You keep asking these questions but I have yet to see you define what these three variables mean to you.

So, help us answer your question.

(1) What do YOU define as "SUL"?
(2) What do YOU define as "possible safe"?
(3) What do YOU define as "truly extreme conditions"?

Somebody like me might turn into a popsicle at zero degrees, yet some of these guys I see from places like MN, AK, Canada and elsewhere, are out there in -20° and having a blast. Until you define these three things, all the rest of us can do is give guess-answers.

So yeah, totally willing to share my thoughts, but I'd rather not just shoot in the dark… give us some clear definitions to work with.

[Gary Pikovsky]

Very good. Answers below:

3) What do YOU define as "truly extreme conditions"?
100+ mph winds and blowing snow, sometimes with whiteout conditions. Solid ice trail segments and bitter cold. In the winter it's 5F to -12F (windchills -60F) now a bit warmer. The extreme part is mostly wind. It's so strong sometimes you can't stand up. Some of the climbers heading to Himalayas practice dealing with weather here on this mountain range before climbing the 8000m peaks.

(1) What do YOU define as "SUL"?
(2) What do YOU define as "possible safe"?
With the above conditions described, I'm thus tempted to treat "SUL" or Will's "Mountain SUL" differently in this case. I truly don't know how "6lb" and less can be safely achieved in such conditions. if the gear doesn't work, there is no turning back or toughing it out. If you mess up with gear when it's blowing, it takes 30 seconds for frost bite to form. In the Rockies, Montana or California it can get kind of cold, but never that windy. So "true SUL" can be done there. But I'm tempted to treat Mount Washington differently. I may be wrong. Hope that answers the other two questions.

All the above being said, if there is a way to do 6-5lb base weight here, that's what I would your advice on how to get close that weight. You all have a ton of experience – would be great to hear good advice.

Thanks as always,
Gary

What is the lightest weight shelter in the world that can handle "100+ mph winds, blowing snow, whiteout conditions" ??

[Gary Pikovsky]

You'd never camp above treeline when the wind is so strong. I always camp below the trees when the shit hits the fan. The trees really reduce the wind. So Locus Gear Khufu Sill with a short snow fort around it works really well. I use fully protected Black Diamond Firstlight if it's really windy. But comparatively, that's a heavy shelter (2+ pounds)

I asked because I have no flipping idea what kind of a shelter can survive 100+ mph winds… and figured we should figure out what the worlds lightest shelter is that CAN survive that… and from there we can have a starting point to figure out a gear setup. I pretty much know most of the rest of the gear setup… but I have never even been close to 100+ mph wind, more or less spent the night in one.

So, perhaps other can chime in and once we get the shelter figured out, the rest should be fairly easy… most of us already know the lightest/best sleeping bags and parkas that can handle the claimed conditions you have set… so really just need to figure out this shelter issue.

[Gary Pikovsky]

John – no issues with current shelter. I won't be camping in the 100+ mph wind, just hiking in it. At night, I would come down to the trees. If it's 100mpj above trees, it's only about 20-30 in the trees.

Plus, even if we found the shelter that can survive the 100 mile winds I don't think you would be able to sleep inside due to the flapping and the noise.

What about the rest of the setup?

[Marc Cryer]

I think your gear seems appropriate assuming you won't be staying above the treeline too long and you keep moving and are ready to head down and out if things don't work out well. I've done a fair amount of cold weather hiking in frigid environments and to be honest I've never managed to do it SUL. Are you traveling alone? I'll also have to admit the most frightening experience I've ever had was not being able to stay warm on a solo hike in the Sierras above Fresno in the winter of 2003 or 04, can't remember the year but despite packing a ton of gear gear, having been out on similar trips numerous times, and being in relatively good health I just couldn't keep warm and had to bug out and down as quickly as I could. Still can't explain why I couldn't keep my core temperature up but my take away lesson was never say never on a solo trip; always be ready to head back. That's all obvious advice though. Hope it works out well.

[Jake D]

Gary, what is your actual plan? and when? these things kinda make a difference up there. there isn't a lot of "below treeline" The observation building and tourist buildings are closed in the winter, Lake of the Clouds is closed in winter.

http://www.newenglandtrailconditions.com/nh/ dunno if you know about the trail condition site.

[ROBERT TANGEN]

The gear you list is some of the lightest on this planet. I'm NO expert, but I don't think you can reduce weight safely.

[Nick Gatel]

Conditions: Extreme winter, heavy wind around 100ph, temps -5F to 25F, windchill -50 to -75f at times
Altitude: 6000ft
Length:1-2 days

"Overnights below treeline in non-windy spots"

No guarantee that in white-outs, extreme weather, etc. you can safely get down to below treeline.

SUL? UL?

Sounds like a potential Darwin Award to me.

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