New Polartec Alpha discussion

[Mitch Chesney]

Has anyone experience with the new Polartex Alpha synthetic insulation? I was intrigued by their claim of improved vapour transmittance for near-next-to-skin performance over Primaloft, which acts more like a shell. Also that the material is 'stable' allowing for more porous/lightweight fabrics.

[Steve K]

It works. It is not as warm but also never really gets stuffy even when you overheat.

Questions?

[Mitch Chesney]

I was interested in its application as a baselayer vest (Rab Strata Vest) over a primaloft vest (Patagonia Nano Puff Vest). Specifically how it differs in transferring sweaty vapour, and possibly sweat itself (being so close to the baselayers), against the primaloft versions… or if it's just more marketing lies. I'm not too interested in heat retention but at 80g/m^2 Alpha how does it compare percentage wise to Primaloft's 60g/m^2?

[And E]

If it works for the special forces, should work well for us ordinary folks. I'd like to try some, but I've already got everything I need so no real incentive to spend more $$ (unless it's for MYOG stuff).

[Steve K]

I find that when I am highly active no matter what weight of Primaloft I am wearing the inner shell will get damp and clammy. In my experience with Polartec Alpha (Rab Strata Hoody, Westcomb Echo Vest) that this is not the case.

I have also been testing them with laminated waterproof shells, and underneath one they will get soggy and gross. (To no surprise.)

Typically sweat/moisture movement in PT Alpha is good enough when not wearing a shell that it is very hard to exceed its ability to wick away and disperse moisture.

80g Alpha doesn't feel to me as warm as 60g Primaloft, but it is close. The shell fabrics used are more air permeable too, so that might have something to do with it. I am guessing that like Polartec Thermal Pro fleece, it should be washed occasionally to maintain loft.

For those who would like to try PT Alpha inexpensively, the REI Venturi Hoody is only $125 and now on sale for $89. Bit heavy at 17oz but a nice jacket otherwise.

[Philip Tschersich]

I have a Marmot Isotherm hoody. It must be the heaviest weight Alpha, though the exact spec eludes me right now. The Alpha insulation seems to be woven and then 'fleeced' on the surface, so it's a little like having a really high-loft, lightweight fleece sandwiched inside a puffy's shell.

I have worn it around town and have taken it on a few hikes during which I wore it for stops and then for 10-15 minutes while starting up hiking again until I got too warm to keep it on. As others have said, you don't get that clammy/damp feeling when putting it on over layers you have already sweated into. It is not as thermally efficient as other insulations, but I guess that's not the point. The Marmot piece even uses a woven mesh liner for about 1/2 the interior area of the jacket to really let your body vent into the insulation space. I don't think I would bring it along as a hang-out-in-camp piece when I am going light, but I would take it sea kayak camping where weight is less of an issue, but moisture is. Or if I were doing moderate (as opposed to intense) activities in really cold weather like avy/ropes training where there is a lot of standing around punctuated by short bouts of activity.

[Paul Hatfield]

I think the shell material matters tremendously. Having breathable insulation surrounded by low-air-permeability fabric doesn't make sense.

For example, the REI jacket mentioned uses Pertex Quantum (air permeability – 2 CFM (max), per Pertex's specs).

On the other hand, the Westcomb Men's Tango jacket, utilizes Pertex Equilibrium, which has at least an order of magnitude higher air permeability than Pertex Quantum.

See this thread
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=86666
for discussion about Patagonia's upcoming Nano Air.

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

True, but the question is also if ALL Quantum and Microlight have such a low CFM (I remember that CFM-measurements by Richard Nisley for Quantum or Microlight varried between 2 and 15+).

[Mitch Chesney]

Whoa, are those specs right? 2 CFM for Polartec Alpha and 40 CFM for Nano Air? What is that stuff made of – cloud wisps?

[Paul Hatfield]

Mitch, the fabric in that jacket has 2 CFM air permeability, and thus the breathability of the jacket is limited by the fabric in that case.

I think Patagonia will be using both breathable fabric and insulation for the Nano Air.

[Eric Osburn]

Any updates on polartec alpha? I'm the kind of guy that seems to sweat in all but the very coldest environments so the claims regarding moisture control that I've read in regards to alpha seem great. It doesn't seem like there are too many garments out there using it though.

Edit: It occurs to me that there may be better materials available than Alpha for moisture control, if so, please educate me.

[Mike Henrick]

$150 for a vest!

Think I'll stick to fleece for wet weather insulation! Ounces be damned!

[greg c]

I've been using the Rab Strata for mountaineering all spring and early summer. Alpha is the real deal. It breathes extraordinarily well in high activity situations. I used to bring an R1 hoodie and Rab Cirrus wind jacket on all of my backpacking and mountaineering forays. My last trip I dispensed with those and simply brought the Strata. Perfect combination of wind protection, insulation, and breathability. For my purposes anyway, all of the Polartec marketing on this new insulation seems to be accurate.

[Rick M]

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[Ito Jakuchu]

Perhaps like Rick I would like to see <80 weights being used.

I have a question from people who have user experience with the Alpha material.

I don't know if it's the case for everybody, but when I wear a thin (as in thinner than R1) grid fleece, I hardly notice it when it is wet. It also keeps me warm, even while it's in between a wet and drenched state.

I keep on reading how Alpha dries out quickly, but how does it perform while it is still wet?

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

"And all of the Alpha current pieces on the market seem to be using Alpha in at least 80g or 100g weights"

I think next year there will be clothing with 60g Alpha.

[Duncan M]

Anybody have experience with the Westcomb Echo vest?

I'm looking for a layer to wear on the move when ski touring in cold conditions. At times I find a baselayer too cold, a softshell too warm, and a traditional down/synth insulating layer way too warm. Goldilocks…

Compared to other options, the Echo vest seems to offer a more breathable shell (Pertex Equilibrium) coupled with breathable fleece side panels. Alternatives such as the Rab Strata vest seem overbuilt and overinsulated for a layer focused on offering breathable warmth.

Can't help but wonder if I'm looking for a niche layer that really isn't necessary. Does alpha really offer a benefit over more traditional fleece layers (e.g., Patagonia Piton Hybrid vest)?

[Steve K]

The Westcomb Echo vest is pretty good. I usually wear it over/under a Houdini or other wind shell when I'm a touch too cold, and it's great. Wicks well, dries fast. The major benefit is that it takes up very little space in a pack compared to fleece and is much more wind resistant. I think it's 40g Polartec Alpha.

[Duncan M]

Thanks for the feedback, Stephen. Any comment on fit?

[Rick M]

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[Ethan A.]

Something that might help think about how Patagonia sees Polartec Alpha fitting in to their layering systems – found out from Patagonia that they are discontinuing the Knifeblade Jacket, which was the successor to the Ready Mix Jacket (the orange jacket Ryan Jordan is wearing on the cover of his UL backpacking book and the one that me and the Ms. were wearing in my avatar), both lightweight breathable soft shell winter jackets, because they see breathable Polartec Alpha and the Nano Air Hoody and Jacket breathable shell material making the Knifeblade shell unnecessary. That is at least what one rep claimed.

Now to be fair, the Knifeblade and Ready Mix blocked wind much better than the Nano Air shell material and insulation are supposed to, but then those jackets didn't have the warm Alpha insulation.

They also claim the Nano Air holds up very well with laundering.

[Ethan A.]

For max versatility for many uses, instead of one very warm belay insulation jacket for rest stops and camp, I like to use two lighter synthetic puff insulation jackets, the outer one sized a bit larger to go over the first.

Because Polartec Alpha is so breathable, it makes sense to use that as your inner puff layer, so you could wear it when moving. But for that outer synthetic jacket, which you would wear when cold and not very active, I think it would make sense to use a traditional less breathable insulation/shell material, like Polartec Primaloft One with a more wind-resistant shell.

What do you think? It doesn't seem to make much sense to have the outer jacket be highly breathable and wind permeable if you are wearing that one when cold and not very active.

[Rick M]

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[Woubeir (from Europe)]

Not such a strange idea. In fact, I think many people are doing this, consciously or unconsciously. Often, people begin with a fleece (in the broad sense) + windlayer. At a certain point, they might change that for something like Alpha or Fullrange. For static conditions, one uses another, much less breathable but also more windproof, jacket to keep him/her warm. Because one carries already the fleece/windlayer combo or something like Alpha/Fullrange, that jacket has not to be so warm. We've been doing that for a while and I guess others are too.

[Rick M]

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