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Aluminized Cuben – Third Time is a Charm?


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Home Forums Gear Forums Gear (General) Aluminized Cuben – Third Time is a Charm?

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  • #1314421
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    We all owe a “thank you” to BPL DIY forum contributor Nathan Myerson. He is working on a project using the latest version of aluminized Cuben. He contacted me to offer a scrap, for “analysis and sharing of my test results with the community” based on a prior forum thread. See: Reflective Cuben Delaminating? – 6 month old news

    The Brooks Range Rocket Tent material I tested on 4/8/11 was Cubic Tech CT2K.18/KM5 which I refer to as the “First Time Version”. The current scrap is labeled CT2K.18/KM7 which I refer to as the “Third Time Version”. The characteristics of KM6 remain a mystery, but I refer to it as the “Second Time Version”.

    Picture of the “Third Time Version” scrap I used for testing:

    1

    “The Third Time Version” material characteristics that I measured are:

    2

    The “First Time Version” catastrophically delaminated during a Protocol B wet-flex aging test. Roger Caffin and I worked together on Protocol B testing procedures. In early 2011 he suggested that we use a Cubex wet-flex machine to achieve single cycle granularity and repeatability. This necessitated the purchase or construction of a fairly complex device which he volunteered to custom build. My concern, at the time, was that if a BPL forum member wanted to verify our Protocol B test results that he/she would have to first purchase or construct this specialized piece of test equipment. I lobbied for just using a standard washing machine and dryer to create wet-flex aging and he reluctantly agreed. After the publication of the Protocol B test results, I purchased a commercial Cubex machine and it is what I have since used for precise wet-flex aging.

    I used a high quality fabric sample to correlate the crude Protocol B cycle with the fine granularity Cubex machine cycles.

    3

    The “First Time Version” aluminized Cuben delaminated between the first and second Protocol B aging procedure or at approximately 5,400 Cubex wet-flex cycles. After testing at fixed intervals up to 16,200 Cubex wet-flex cycles (3x the amount of wet-flexes needed to create a catastrophic failure in the “First Time Version") the “Third Time Version” maintained >3,515 mm H20 HH and had zero signs of delamination.

    OK Now it Works – What is Different?

    The "First Time Version" micrograph at 5mm field of view. Inside it looked like a Star War’s movie scene. There was no major aluminized surface voids, only micro-dot voids, and a large amount of celery-green color adhesive used. It looked really high tech but…

    4

    The "Third Time Version" micrograph at 5mm field of view. With all of the obvious fissures, I said to myself, “This material will never pass a large number of Cubex wet-flex cycles but, …

    5

    A much more detailed look at "The Third Version" shown at 600um field of view:

    6

    It is obvious from this micrograph that the aluminum coating was applied on only one layer of Mylar. One side is significantly shinier (lower emissivity) and that is the aluminized side.

    #2082934
    Nathan Meyerson
    BPL Member

    @nathanmeyerson

    Locale: Southwest

    Just a note.

    I was informed by Cubic Tech that the original aluminized Cuben fiber fabric was unique in that it blocked RF signals. Perhaps it was purpose built for this unique feature alone and not for durability.

    I trust that Cubic Tech has the engineering know-how to create a fabric within very specific design requirements.

    Anyway, the thanks goes to Richard, as he actually did all the work.

    Cheers!

    Edit: thanks Bob!

    #2083126
    Delmar O’Donnell
    Member

    @bolster

    Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio

    nm.

    #2083128
    Bob Gross
    BPL Member

    @b-g-2-2

    Locale: Silicon Valley

    "I was informed by Cubic Tech that the original aluminized Cuben fiber fabric was unique in that it blocked RAF signals."

    This is inspiring. Now the terrorists can hide from the Royal Air Force signals.

    –B.G.–

    #2083212
    Stuart R
    BPL Member

    @scunnered

    Locale: Scotland

    Low emmissivity = condensation free tarp/tent?

    #2083376
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    It will provide reduced condensation but, IR cooling below ambient temperature, to a clear night sky, is only one of many causes.

    #2083452
    Adam Kilpatrick
    BPL Member

    @oysters

    Locale: South Australia

    Warmer groundsheet?

    RFID Uberlight Wallet?

    Warmer hammock? (Go much skimpier on underquilt, use this as outer fabric (seam seal), skimpier top tarp).

    Warmer VPL gear?

    Alien protection?

    Instant pop-up Signal warfare tent (probably its commissioned use)?

    #2083454
    BlackHatGuy
    Spectator

    @sleeping

    Locale: The Cascades

    Where does one get this cuben?

    #2083466
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    CT2K.18/KM7 is sold directly by Cubic Tech in 9M lengths or longer. It would be nice if one of the cottage guys started reselling this for the DIY crowd (hint, hint).

    #2083548
    Nathan Meyerson
    BPL Member

    @nathanmeyerson

    Locale: Southwest

    I will have a quantity of this material available for sale next week.

    I'll post a link in the gear deals subforum when I have it in the mail.

    Patience friends!

    #2083610
    Ron D
    BPL Member

    @dillonr

    Locale: Colorado

    Nathan – That's great and we appreciate you taking this on. Do you know the weight and do you know if there is any difference in the bonding process as a result of it being aluminized cuben?
    Thanks…Ron

    #2084200
    Jason Hung
    BPL Member

    @moma-moma

    Locale: store.picharpak.com
    #2084239
    Nathan Meyerson
    BPL Member

    @nathanmeyerson

    Locale: Southwest

    Ron,

    I haven't tested this fabric to see whether or not it is bondable. I assume it is. If anyone with experience in this wanted a small sample to do some bonding strength tests, I'm happy to mail it out.
    The weight is 1.25oz/yd2

    Also,
    This is not an RF blocking fabric. Cubic tech no longer produces fabric that blocks RF signals. This was told to me by the company.

    #2084595
    Colin Krusor
    BPL Member

    @ckrusor

    Locale: Northwest US

    Nathan or Richard, which mylar surface is aluminized? Sorry if this is made clear in an earlier post and I missed it. Is the aluminum surface inside the laminate (on an inward-facing mylar surface), or on the exterior?

    I spoke to someone at Cubic Tech a while ago who speculated that the aluminized cuben delamination problem might be due to the fact that the aluminum surface either bonds poorly to the lamination adhesive or else tends to peel away from its TVD substrate (the mylar). In any case, he felt that the presence of the aluminum layer in the laminate was to blame.

    I assume that the aluminized surface is inside the laminate (for durability), and that the speculation by the guy at CT is wrong because Richard's tests confirm that the new stuff resists delamination. I'm only asking about it to confirm that the aluminum surface isn't on the outside, which might affect bonding (not to mention the effect on the durability of the metal layer).

    #2084635
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    Colin,

    The aluminum is on the inside. Regarding adhesives for DIY projects, it is still a Mylar to Mylar bond like conventional Cuben.

    My GUESS is that the aluminum coating fissure pattern allows an internal lattice-like structure for the adhesive to bond to under the internal coated aluminum. This should augment the aluminum coating bond.

    #2084943
    Colin Krusor
    BPL Member

    @ckrusor

    Locale: Northwest US

    Thanks, Richard. On a slightly different (but related) topic: has anyone seen emissivity data for aluminized cuben? We seem to make the collective assumption that it will perform like a space blanket, which has a bare aluminum surface. But the mylar surface of aluminized cuben should have a higher emissivity.

    Richard, for aluminized cuben, is the effect of the mylar on the emissivity of the laminate negligible because the mylar is so thin? Should we expect aluminized cuben to actually have very low emissivity?

    #2084997
     
    BPL Member

    @rememberthelorax

    How would this fabric do for thermal blocking for use in extreme sun conditions?

    #2085095
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    Colin,

    That was a very well-reasoned question! The short answer is “I have not seen any emissivity specification for this product.” Now for the long answer (smile). For those not familiar with this topic, at minimum you need to understand that a material with an emissivity of 1.0 is a perfect radiator and 0.0 would radiate no heat.

    As you stated, neither the generic Mylar base-layer “Space Blankets” nor the polyethylene base-layer “Heat Sheets” have any protective coating over their aluminum layer. The bad news is that this air exposed aluminum layer can quickly oxidize and/or rub off. The good news is that all other things equal, their “when new” emissivity should be lower. Theoretically, their average 1 micron thick aluminum coating should have an emissivity of .1 – .2 when manufactured and .2 – .4 after significant oxidation. In contrast, the Cuben material has Mylar on the outside. Mylar’s emissivity will vary with its thickness but, for a representative thickness of 10 microns it is ~.4.

    Updated 8/20/14:

    I built a new apparatus to test emissivity in the spectrum: LWIR 8-14um. It is based on the ASTM C1371 methodology; it uses a Fluke 62 Max+ and an Excel spreadsheet to compare/integrate a high emittance and low emittance reference sample to the test sample.

    I only had the aged Cuben sample to retest. The original test showed the same value for both the new and aged Cuben. The corrected test values are as follows:

    2lw

    Above image is from a FLIR R&D manual,

    #2085101
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    John,

    To answer your question I looked through each alternative at the noon day sun. The most shielding option was the aluminized Cuben. Less effective was a Heat Sheet, which is an opaque orange color with extensive black lettering on the back. The Space Blanket was the least effective and caused a very uncomfortable glare.

    The Cuben's Dyneema fiber grid looked like a dense grey sun shade grid pattern when I looked at the sun. It should be very effective as an extreme sun shelter.

    #2085199
    Colin Krusor
    BPL Member

    @ckrusor

    Locale: Northwest US

    Thanks, Richard.

    #2087035
    Nathan Meyerson
    BPL Member

    @nathanmeyerson

    Locale: Southwest

    10% off coupon for Aluminzed Cuben Among other things

    Here

    #2088451
    Lawson Kline
    BPL Member

    @mountainfitter

    The reason the first version had delamination issues was due to the fact that the film was nylon and the adhesive was water based….

    >>>>"I trust that Cubic Tech has the engineering know-how to create a fabric within very specific design requirements." Not to rain on anyone's parade but where were these "engineers" the first time???? They first version of the material was supposte to be 4 season shelter worthy………………..

    #2088497
    Nathan Meyerson
    BPL Member

    @nathanmeyerson

    Locale: Southwest

    In the conversation I had with Cubic Tech's sales person, he spoke to the original version as being designed with RF blocking as its main design component. Not sure if he was covering up something, or who it was that originally told you that version of fabric was 4 season shelter worthy. Id hope their engineets undetstood a water soluable adhesive creates an issue for a fabric for use in shelters..

    I suppose it may take independent testing to confirm the claims of salespeople.

    #2088501
    Roger Caffin
    BPL Member

    @rcaffin

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe

    Hi Richard

    The emissivity of new aluminium foil should be more like 0.1 in my experience.
    I cannot comment on the others.

    Cheers

    #2088565
     
    BPL Member

    @rememberthelorax

    I just got mine today – thanks Nathan!

    wow, soooo not what I was expecting it to be.

    Its very stiff… far beyond any other CF fabric I have encountered.

    I was also kind of surprised that it was silver on both sides… I expected only one side to be.

    Going to be fun playing around with this stuff the next couple of weeks… gotta think up some experiments to put it through!

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