DWR treatment vs Permethrin compatibility

[Daniel Collins]

I have a pair of Railriders supplex nylon "adventure pants" that I would like to use for hiking.
I would like to treat them with the appropriate Nikwax product to add some additional water repellance.
But I would also like to spray them with Permethrin for the mosquitos etc and ticks.
Could this be done ? If so, in what order ?

Would ScotchGuard work better ?
Thanks for any suggestions.

[Ken Thompson]

The permethrin will degrade the DWR .

Permethrin Facts

http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/Permtech.pdf

http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/factsheets/permethrin_fs.htm

[steven franchuk]

In order for the Permethrin to work is has to be on the outside with the DWR under it. Same goes for the DWR it has to be on the outside to work with the Permethrin under it. With the Permethrin under the DWR how are the bugs won't know that it is there. If the DWR is covered the water will stick to the Permethrin.

I cannot think of any way to get both to work at the same time.

[James Marco]

Depending on what DWR is chosen, it is certainly possible. Some are mearly hydrophobic coatings, some are heavier, more like a plastic film. I believe RainX (heat activated kind) is heavier than a silicone coating like Camp Dry. I have used a DWR on my shirt, and, it was also dipped in permethrin. It works, sort-of. But mosquitoes bite through the shirt, anyway, more for black-flies, no-see-ums, etc.

My own nylon pants are usually dipped in permethrin, allowed to dry, rinsed and then laundered. Permethrin acts like a DYE. Sort-of like a blue dye on cotton cloths. It sticks to the molecules of nylon with loose hydrogen bonds. It is not really a repellant. Except, any insect that has a survival instinct will tend to avoid it. Kind-of like swatting a fly…they move. Mosquitoes, no-see-umms, etc will do the same. If they are hungry enough, they will bite immediatly, right through a more open weave like my shirt, but they become preocupied with wiping off that "bad" substance right away, the second they start feeling the effects. They need to survive to lay eggs… I think of it as *revenge*, not repellancy, ha, ha.

A DWR is a COATING. It does not bond with the nylon molecules. It simply makes the molecules more hydrophobic. The two can certanly be used together, provided you treat the fabric with Permethrin, first. Dry it, rinse any excess, then launder it. THEN spray DWR and dry it in the dryer. However, heavier coatings will mask much of the permethrin. You need a good heavy dipped coating with .025-.05% saturation throughout the fabric to prevent this masking. Campdry, NikWax TX, or one of the non-heat activated ones are not as durable, nor are they as heavy, and would be a better choice.

[Daniel Collins]

Based on all of the helpful replies I think I will skip the DWR treatment and go with the Permethrin only. The pants are nylon so they will dry out fairly fast.
Thanks folks.

[Matthew Bradley]

I contacted InsectShield a few weeks ago asking if a DWRed pair of pants would work with their “mail it to us” treatment program.* The reply was that the treatment relies upon the permethrin being able to bind to the fabric and that DWR prevents that from taking place effectively.

* http://bit.ly/1b5nrPT

[Daniel Collins]

The Insect Shield literature claims it's good for 70 launderings.
How does the home applied Sawyer Permethrin compare to that?

[Desert Dweller]

Not as long in my experience, but the savings of doing it yourself is much better than buying new clothes. I would say about half as long. In the spring (March) I treat my favorite exOfficio pants and shirt, then once more mid summer (July) and maybe one more time in the fall (October) and that is with heavy use and almost daily washing at home, except when I'm on the trail for months, then they are washed once a week.
After about three months the Mosquitos start to get interested again in biting and the horseflies land and check the fabric out longer, so I think that's when it starts to weaken.

[Matthew Bradley]

If you go with the Sawyer treatment give the garment a run through the dryer on as high a setting as it will take for 30–60 minutes afterwards. That should help prolong the efficacy a bit.

[Daniel Collins]

Both Sawyer Permethrin boxes I have here say 42 days or 6 washes before reapplication is required.
That is the commercially available 5 percent concentration.

So I wonder how they do the "70 washes" style treatment.

Also wondering if this would be a waste on my Cuben fiber tent (Skyscape-X)

[Billy Ray]

Anyone have an idea how to remove Permethrin?
There are products that I would like to buy and use that only come with Permethrin but I do not wish to be breathing this toxin.
How to emove it without having to do the 70 or whatever washings which would be time consuming and likely go a long way to wearing out the product…

Thanks,

Bill D.

[Matthew Bradley]

So I wonder how they do the "70 washes" style treatment.

Pressure is involved, I believe.

There are products that I would like to buy and use that only come with Permethrin but I do not wish to be breathing this toxin.

While one should avoid breathing Permethrin in its aerosol form, there is no danger of that with an Insect Shield-ed product.

[Billy Ray]

I wouldn't be too sure of that… the particular chemicals in this product are listed as carcinogens. If it will wear off in the wash it will wear off into your sweat and into your skin.

This is the way it always starts out… chemical of great convenience… manufacturer says it's safe… don't worry, trust me… then years later after we've all been using it people start to show up in the clinic with cancer… then they take another few years of studies (and manufacturers dragging their feet) and then, finally, maybe they put a warning label on the product…

Don't want to start a big argument and it would serve no use… but I can tell you that I won't be using any of the products that contain this chemical… no matter what 'evidence' you or they come up with…

Bill D

[Daniel Collins]

Bill I respect your right to decide what you come in contact with, but the likelihood you will be affected is nil, unless you like drinking it.
Some lab mice developed tumors after orally ingesting permethrin, so it is classed as a "likely" carcinogen.
It is more likely to be banned at some point due to its effects in the environment on fish and birds. Very toxic to fish but it does break down in a few months.

It is a good reason to NOT launder Permethrin treated clothing near water bodies, even within the 200 feet limit. The US Forest Service sprays it on trees BTW, where pine beetles etc are present. They use a 99 percent solution, not the mealy 5 percent used for clothing.

http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/factsheets/permethrin_fs.htm

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