Is National Outdoor Leadership School (NOLS) Ready to Go Light?

[Anonymous]

Years ago I took a Nols course. My pack was over a hundred pounds, and we were skiing. I remember frying canned bacon on a stove that kept catching on fire by the fuel cap. A fat
girl got frostbight taking a pee, another guy blew out his knee, a woman broke her arm… It was an adventure and I've been having adventures ever since, just lighter ones!
EvGo

[Ryan Hutchins]

Everitt,
Not sure how many years ago that was, but I am happy to say that things have changed a lot since then. We are pulling sleds and carrying way lighter packs, have plastic tele boots and shaped skis – and the bacon isn't in cans anymore!

Hope you can still use some of what you learned out there today.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Ryan

> 3)a liability reality that requires that we take many "what if" items.

I wonder … what would happen if you left nearly ALL the 'what if' items behind, and took a good mobile phone instead?
The very high probability is that you would not miss any of the 'what if' items, and because people would lighter packs they would be less likely to have an accident anyhow. In the event of a serious accident you would never be that far from help anyhow: my understanding is that there just are not that many really roadless areas anyhow. If the accident is severe – a broken leg for instance, SAR chopper is THE way to go.
Just a thought.

[Einstein X]

>>But kitchens are the ultimate weight hogs. Yes, students carry about 10 days at a time. The result is about 20 pounds of food per person per cook group. Now add two big pots, and a big Frybake pan. Now add a Whisperlite stove and 3-4 33 ounce bottles of fuel………Oh and don't forget the MONSTROUS 2 pound spice kit. (AT LEAST 2 pounds – plastic bottles of salt, pepper, garlic powder, hot sauce, soy sauce, oregano, chili powder, baking powder, yeast, dill, cumin, curry, oil, vinegar, etc). <<

What strikes me is that it seems every student is carrying two big pots and a frying pan, each student is carrying a whisperlite and each student is carrying 2 pounds worth of spices???

I have no idea of group sizes in these course but i think that it's perfectly possible to share these two pots and one frying pan with at least 5 people. In fact, I think it's entirely possible to carry one cook set for an entire group.

Than the spices; I have many spices at home, but all of these together don't even come to 2# and they last for weeks. Can't you go without spices for ten days? Even if you can't make sth like an allspice kinda mix than you need say 5, maybe ten grams per day? Thats about 2 to 3 ounce per person for a ten day trip. I just can't get around Nols student needing 2# of spices. Seems to me these courses teach "take-everything-but-the-kitchen-sink" ethics.

I think most weight savings can be done by sharing gear. One HUGE bombproof tarp can house ten students and will be much lighter than 5 four-season, two-person tents. Although if the course includes some high alpine camping a four-season tent is a good thing to have.

So I think sharing gear is a good think Nols can do to lighten up.

Eins

[Shawn Basil]

">>But kitchens are the ultimate weight hogs. Yes, students carry about 10 days at a time. The result is about 20 pounds of food per person per cook group. Now add two big pots, and a big Frybake pan. Now add a Whisperlite stove and 3-4 33 ounce bottles of fuel………Oh and don't forget the MONSTROUS 2 pound spice kit. (AT LEAST 2 pounds – plastic bottles of salt, pepper, garlic powder, hot sauce, soy sauce, oregano, chili powder, baking powder, yeast, dill, cumin, curry, oil, vinegar, etc). <<

What strikes me is that it seems every student is carrying two big pots and a frying pan, each student is carrying a whisperlite and each student is carrying 2 pounds worth of spices???"

You might notice that I mentioned per COOK GROUP. The food is per person but the kitchen is per GROUP. There are usually students in a typical cook group. But the fact is that the bigger students often wind up carrying most of the kitchen for their group.

Instructors are worse off because there are usually just 2 or 3 in an instructor team, with the same gear as their students plus HUGE overdone first aid kits in tupperware, ground-air radio, cell phone, books for instructional planning, map sets, markers and mylar for classes, and massive field repair kit.

As for spices, they are heavily overdone, no doubt. As long as baking remains a part of the curriculum, kits will be heavy. I have to questions whether frybake pans really are two pounds (I would have guessed maybe one pound) but they are a requirement for baking. I would actually take the frybake and leave the heavy clunky pots if it were my call.

Any chance of a fundamental shift in the "Gulch" (food issue area) of going to freezer bag style meals? It would be a fundamental shift, but it would go a long way to lightening up.

[Don Wilson]

At the semianr, after so much discussion about the frybake, we were curious about it's actual weight – so we weighed one when we got back to the NOLS southwest facility. I believe it came in at 1 pound 14 ounces, including the lid.

It certainly seems possible with a little thought and experimentation to design a pan that could do all of what a current frybake does, and maybe cut the weight to 1 pound. There's a challenge for someone.

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

Can I ask why in god's green earth anyone NEEDS a fry pan in this day and age? I know the stuff fryed/cooked in it does taste good…but does anyone really NEED it?
Same on carrying 4 lbs of flour! :-O

Now granted, I am a UL backpacker, and I cut corners whenever I can, but for me, food was one of the biggest areas to cut weight in. And one of the easiest areas. Maybe I don't get home baked goodies, but I won't die from that either ;-) It isn't hard to use freeze dried or dehydrated meats, TVP, vegetables, pasta, rice, etc for a wide range of recipes/meals and still cut in half. I guess what has me thinking is this: NOLS is well known for it's gourmet meals (nothing wrong with that!) but to go truly light, you need to do some sacrificing. In most cases you won't be able to take the eating style and translate it to UL backpacking down the road. Most UL'ers I have encountered have similar kitchens to me: stove,fuel, cup, spoon or spork and a UL pan to boil water in. That is it. Food is spiced up with very light spices and olive oil. You can do spices and still be UL, just no wheels o' spices in the pack. Instead use craft sized ziploc bags.

I cannot think of carrying 40 lbs these days. The thought of 60 lbs causes my back to scream. Maybe if I was 23 again I could ;-)

But hey, thats my view ;-)

[Brett .]

Sarah,
Maybe seeing one of these beauties will change your mind..

It's shown here with climbing gear. When you are already carrying 30 lbs or so of climbing gear on top of a 20 lb winter base load, I'll bet the pot does not seem so significant.. but, yeah, I'm with you, I would not want to carry one.
These pans are for hardmen who carry canvas packs, hemp rope, and canned bacon; not cuben fiber, dyneema, and powdered protien-infused soy late.
And I'll bet they make some great meals.

http://frybake.com/

[Carol Crooker]

The thing to keep in mind is that NOLS is an institution with a long tradition of a specific type of cooking. They are proud of how good they eat in the field. Gourmet eating is part of the signature NOLS experience. Change needs to be gradual for it to happen. I think LW cooking methods like Sarah and the rest of us espouse will (and already did) go over well in the Lightweight Course. But, for across the board changes in the regular backpacking courses to be accepted, the gourmet experience needs to be preserved. It's just a matter of figuring out how to retain most of the "flavor" with lighter gear and food.

The NOLS instructors in the seminar were all senior instructors. They are steeped in the NOLS tradition of good eating but were very eager to figure out how to lighten packs once they felt how good 15 lb packs feel on the trail.

I can't emphasize enough how impressed I was with these guys and gals. They aren't weekend or week-long warriors like most of us. Many live in the backcountry 6 months of the year and live out of their cars in between trips. Consider that they are responsible for the safety of a group of young, beginner backpackers and that they do most of their travel off-trail, and you'll understand why the instructors who make it to senior status are incredibly self reliant and are creative problem solvers. After meeting these 10 instructors, I have absolutely no doubt that NOLS can figure out how to cut 60 lb packs to 40 lbs.

[Peter Headland]

>I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone at NOLS who believes in having a "exploitative/dominating relationship with the environment."

When you take a large group out into the wilderness, loaded with "just-in-case" gear, everyone knowing that if anything bad happens help is a satellite phone call away, cooking meals that are better than many students eat at home, you are not embracing the wilderness, you are dominating it, whatever your intentions. This is the American pioneer culture which is at the root of traditional backpacking. Contrast the NOLS wilderness experience with how Kalahari bushmen or Australian aboriginals used to live and you will see what I mean.

I think it is an unavoidable part of what NOLS does/its clientele to have a methodology that is adhered to fairly strictly and put across firmly as the "right way" to do stuff. That may not be how the instructor views the world, but I believe it is what the students hear.

Just visit the NOLS web site and read all the puff about the methodology, how NOLS is the best in teaching wilderness skills, etc. Personally, I'd kill to have one of the BPL gurus take me out on a SUL trip; but you'd have to pay me to go on a NOLS course. If I went out with a BPL guru, I would expect that person to share what they know, not teach me what to do (which is what NOLS has to do, given the clientele it serves).

[Shane Perry]

Ryan,

It would seem to me that if I'm paying 3k+ for a 10 day course I wouldn't be averse to paying another 800 dollars for a new pack, quilt, and tarp. Why does durability have to be an issue? Cut a deal with some manufacturers to buy these items in bulk and send your students home with some real UL gear. Doesn't that make more sense? That shifts a significant financial obligation to the student and you could probably lower your customer costs and end up with a similar net profit per student with only a slight increase from the customers perspective. That would eliminate gear maintenance costs, storage costs, gear longevity concerns, etc. I guess this is an obvious question, why hasn't NOLS done something like this already?

Shane

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

Brett, I am a card carrying member of the Wussy Whiners. My level of whining goes up with every 5 lbs of pack weight. ;-)
Yesterday on the trail, my friend Steve and I had a long discussion over whether or not we would carry walking crampons this summer on our next PCT adventure. We argue about every ounce, and try to justify not taking stuff.

[Sam Haraldson]

One of the main purposes of NOLS is to teach students the art of being a guide, yes? As a guide it will often be your responsibility to carry extra cooking equipment and such luxuries as a spice rack because that's why people hire guides usually.

Granted, NOLS is most certainly able to reduce their gear weights required by students but it won't be at the cost of some spices or their bulk food system. I think refinements in this area would be extremely helpful to them however.

[Ryan Hutchins]

Hi Roger,
To clarify, the what if items are: 1 (rather extensive) first aid kit/ Instructor. We usually hike in small groups and meet up at camp, this allows each group to travel w/ a WFR/WEMT trained Instructor w/ a first aid kit.
1 Sat phone and or 1 cell phone depending on the area that the course is in. Many of our course areas do NOT get cell reception, and a sat phone is necessary.

"In the event of a serious accident you would never be that far far from help anyhow: my understanding is that there just are not that many really roadless areas anyhow"

That's actually not true. We operate in some of the largest federally designated wilderness areas in the US and some of the most remote areas in the world (we just started an Amazon program). The turn around time between calling out for help and having a chopper land can still be up to eight hours, and certainly over 2, which is the definition of extended care wilderness medicine. We use choppers for injuries that threaten life or limb. it is unlikely that you will die from a broken leg, and there are other ways that one could be evaced for such an injury, though a chopper might be used.

Other what ifs, probably add up to more clothes than we need.

[Paul Luther]

Hi everyone, As a NOLS alumnus, Mountaineering in the Cascades 1983, I have mixed emotions about my experience. On the positive side I experienced a wonderful area, had good weather (for the Cascades), had a pretty good group of people (11 total), good instructors (especially Mal Miller),I could go without soap for 31 days!,and learned some outdoor skills that are with me to this day.

On the negative side I did more camping/hiking than climbing and the packs were a burden. we hiked in Koflach Ultras, used Kelty external frame packs, and slept in BIG synthetic bags. Group teams (3 people) divided-up the Otimus 111B, a Eureka Sentinal 3 person tent, spice kit, climbing gear, etc. There was more, but I don't remember what. Oops, forgot the pressure cooker.

24 years later I do 5+ days with a total pack weight of sub 18lbs, and I'm always on the lookout for ways to "lighten up" more.

Lets face it, we SUL/UL hikers are still a minority, but the gospel is getting around. Are you listening NOLS?

Cheers
Paul

[Ryan Hutchins]

Thanks for clarifying the kitchen weight Shawn. I don't think we have met, but I appreciate your insights.
To update this a bit more,
cook groups are four person in general. We are looking at what a change there would do to lower weights. A cook group on a standard hiking course carries 1 3-4 liter pot, 1 frybake, 1 whisperlite stove, 4 33 oz fuel bottles, a spatula, pot grips that are way to heavy ( we find there are fewer burns if students use pot grips), a large spice kit, and obviously food, which is about 1.5 #/person/day.

First aid kits are no longer in tupperware, ground air radios are not being used except in specific locations, but the3 other stuff is all still there.

Yes – spice kits are over done. I think we could get away with one per course. Instructors are being encouraged to do that, or to simply down size the kit and have additions sent in at a reration.

I ageree about taking a frybake and having a less heavy pot!

The Gulch is lookinig at it's systems right now. I doubt we will ever go to freeze dried meals or even completely to boil in a bag meals as was explained in the podcast. But I am confident something will happen.

[Ryan Hutchins]

Sarah, please remember that we are talking about two things here- the lightweight courses which are already happening (and don't bring a frybake) and standard NOLS hiking courses where cooking is a major part of the curriculum. These courses will never be UL, and that is not our goal, our goal is to simply lower pack weights. FWIW a 60 lb pack causes my back to scream too.

[David Olsen]

The NOLS instructors I worked with at Outward Bound (there is
some crossover, OB tends to pay better) typically had 45 lbs packs themselves. This included books and climbing rack, helmet, ice axe, first aid etc. And this was in the 80's and 90's before silnylon tarps etc. and with a weeks work of bulk issue food. There must be a lot of gear extra they have
to bring on a NOLS course.

My work pack, a 30 old Lowe, weighed 4.5 lbs and lasted
for 15 years of full time instructing. It was just pack
cloth and cordura. I have a durable and slightly smaller
NZ made Ravine that weighs under 3.5 lbs now too.

There is 'bout 4 lbs lost in just the pack and no loss in function, size, comfort or durability.

As for student groups-

NOLS uses cook groups of 3, OB cook groups of 10,
at least one less set of cook gear for OB style.

NOLS Thelma Fly 200d oxford light coat weight 3.5 lbs for 3 people.
OB Group Tarp 70d heavy coat 3 lbs for 5 people.

[Ryan Hutchins]

Shane,
We are looking into this exact idea.

Again to clarify, on the lightweight course which is 14 days and a bit over $3k, the students DO buy all that gear and then some. A standard 30 day course, which on average is 100-120$/day (so a bit over 3k) does not do this (yet), nor does a 90 day semester with 3-4 different skill sections, or the new 180 day academic year programs.

Although our client/students in general come from upper middle to upper class backgrounds, we are trying very hard to make the courses accessable to more diverse populations. We offer a multitude of scholarships, and provide gear to those students rent free. If we gave them light gear that other were buying, our scholarships would have less reach. We are however working with companies to try to do this. We want to avoid having the folks who paid full boat have all the nice light gear and packs and the scholarship students get hosed with heavy stuff.

You are absolutely right that it makes sense (at least to me it does)

We started the discussion with BPL and Golite last year. We have made great strides since then, and continue to move forward. I realize that it can be hard to wrap your head around what we do out there (ask Andrew Skurka!) but it is way more than just recreational hiking that most people do.

I need to point out that the title of this forum is a bit misleading.

"Is NOLS ready to go light?"

YES! We are ready. we are already moving towards it on many different levels. Will major change take time? Of course. It's not going to happen over night. There are a multitude of bigger picture issues that need to be addressed along the way. Is the whole school going to only teach UL techniques on every course? No, probably not, and certainly not in the next 2-3 years. But how many of us went from a traditional backpacking weight to UL or SUL over night?

To the obvious question of why hasn't NOLS done something like this already? I don't have all the answers, but I think it comes down to knowing what works well for our courses and not seeing lighter weight replacements until recently, that might work. We are looking into selling students all the gear for thier courses but we need to balance the cost effectiveness for them and for the school.

[Shawn Basil]

"To the obvious question of why hasn't NOLS done something like this already?"

I would offer one idea from my personal experience. The people who buy gear for NOLS, set NOLS accepted field policies (NAFP's), and make liaison with potential students are NOT the people in the field. They all have had an NOLS field experience at some point, but for many this was 20 years ago.

My experience with this disconnect looks like:

Students showed up for a course with a 5 pound pair of boots, when there are SO many 3 pound pairs that would do the trick. Why? Folks sitting in an office in Lander, who honestly don't know what modern gear is available insisted that students "need" heavy boots for a course.

Packs that weigh five pounds were shunted off as "too small". Students were told they will NOT be acceptable, and they should simply rent.

Many were told their down bag may not be allowed and that a 4-pound synthetic bag was the way to go.

West Nile Virus caused the school to mandate full enclosed mesh tents for all courses in the Wind River range and Absarokas. Full tents, and bombproof ones at that, mean heavier packs and instructors can to nothing about this field policy.

As an instructor team, WE were (in theory) the final arbiters. Is was OUR responsibility first and foremost for our students welfare. But the school pays a fortune in liability insurance any way (Two students' tuition paid for the entire instructor team, while the other 10-12 students' tuition went to "overhead", which supposedly was insurance in a large part). And when the student arrived with ancient heavy gear, it was too late for us to intervene.

Instructors have made MANY efforts to lighten gear for close to a decade. But they were largely shut out of the selection process in the past. The folks who make the big decisions for the school have more often than not led a group in the field in 5-10 years. At least this was my experience in the 2001-2003 timeframe that I was associated with NOLS.

THIS is why I have real doubts about a one-year turnaround to 40 pound packs. I just remember too much institutional inertia to listen to field staff.

[Ryan Hutchins]

Shawn, you make some good points.

The 40# initiative came from the branch level (and from the pushes that you speak of from Instructors). I think there IS a large amount of disconnect above the branch level, at the same time, the school as a whole does support this iniative, at least in word so far (budgets are being decided for Fy 2008 as we speak).
As a school we try to buy gear in larger quantities to get a better price break, that may be changing as different branches realise that what works in the SW may not in Alaska. I think this is key to making major changes. The 40# initiative has been in play since spring of 2006, so it is actually a two year plan and initially only at the Rocky Mountain location, though the SW is going forward with it as well.

We had good success last summer lowering pack weights to around 45-50 lbs, while still using the "traditional" NOLS gear, so I think another 5-10 can happen by next year. Particularly if the initiative remains a major part of briefings for Instructor teams. I guess time will tell.

There certainly is a lot of institutional inertia to overcome, that is part of being a big organization. My hope is that we shift the inertia from where it has traditionally been to a lighter weight focus.

An example of this happening is that both the Rocky Mountain and SW branches are offering fully subsidized seminars for instructors to learn the techniques involved. They are doing this despite the seminars not making it into the budget cycle for this (2007) year. I think this shows a great commitment. Next year the Seminars will be budgeted and hopefully each branch will offer one.

FYI the rocky mountain seminar starts today and Ryan Jordan and Coop from GoLite are up there as I type.

That should equate to 20 instructors that are bought into the concept and ready to start lowering pack weights on courses they work. In addition, 6 folks from NOLS rocky mountain were involved in the exploretory process in the spring of 2006, one of whom is the Assistant Director of the Rocky mountain branch and one who is the Director of the SW branch, the rest were program supervisors who will be briefing every instructor team that comes through the branch.

In the last two days I have given clinics to an Instructor course (3 Instructors, and 15 future instructors) as well as a Gila backpacking course (3 Instructors, 15 students). Everyone was excited to see this happening.

That totals almost 50 folks (or ~10%) of the working (worked a course in the past 2 years) instructor pool who have been introduced to these concepts now. A lot of these people are senior staff and are course leading courses. This means thay will be able to share the light with junior staff.

Is the 2008 goal ambitious? Yes I think it is. But we set it as an amitious goal to force the issue. And the goal was set by the rocky mountain leadership, not by instructors.

I'm not sure what you are up to these days, but coming back to work a course one summer would be awesome, you have obviously been doing a lot of personal UL stuff, and I am sure we could learn a lot from you and you could help spread the word.

I have been working for the school for eight years now, and I can honestly say that this is the most exciting thing that I have seen happening, pedagogy wise, at the school in that time.

We need to keep the momentum going to make it happen, and I am committed to making that happen. I know I am only one Instructor, but there are others that feel the same way, including many Branch directors (I know this because my wife is the SW director and has been championing this at the Branch director meetings that are happening right now).

[Ryan Hutchins]

On 4/12/2007 10:39:53 MDT Sam Haraldson wrote:

"One of the main purposes of NOLS is to teach students the art of being a guide, yes? As a guide it will often be your responsibility to carry extra cooking equipment and such luxuries as a spice rack because that's why people hire guides usually.

Granted, NOLS is most certainly able to reduce their gear weights required by students but it won't be at the cost of some spices or their bulk food system. I think refinements in this area would be extremely helpful to them however."

I think guide in the broad sense of the term. Outdoor leader for sure, and in the bigger picture, Leaders in general.

I agree that guides/leaders are often responsible for carrying more.

I agree that refinements of the spice kit and the bulk food system will help a lot. I for one will likely never carry the full NOLS spice kit into the field again, and I will trim it down significantly for my students as well.

[Tom Clark]

Ray Jardine has a 6-day outdoor course called Journey's Flow and a 10-day Connection Camp. I never took it and don't know all of the details or differences between the two, but it's obviously UL focused. It appears that the students sew their own backpacks & tarps, which helps with the cost while contributing to their knowledge. It also covers LNT principles. The students' comments that are listed are very favorable.

Check out the photos and info.

http://www.rayjardine.com/ray-way/classes/013-jf-04/jf-04.shtml

http://www.ray-way.com/classes/002-cc-01/cc-01.shtml

Does anyone have any personal experience with either course?

Tom

[Ryan Hutchins]

Posted: 04/12/2007 12:13:32 MDT by David Olsen (oware)

"The NOLS instructors I worked with at Outward Bound (there is
some crossover, OB tends to pay better) typically had 45 lbs packs themselves. This included books and climbing rack, helmet, ice axe, first aid etc. And this was in the 80's and 90's before silnylon tarps etc. and with a weeks work of bulk issue food. There must be a lot of gear extra they have
to bring on a NOLS course.

My work pack, a 30 old Lowe, weighed 4.5 lbs and lasted
for 15 years of full time instructing. It was just pack
cloth and cordura. I have a durable and slightly smaller
NZ made Ravine that weighs under 3.5 lbs now too.

There is 'bout 4 lbs lost in just the pack and no loss in function, size, comfort or durability.

As for student groups-

NOLS uses cook groups of 3, OB cook groups of 10,
at least one less set of cook gear for OB style.

NOLS Thelma Fly 200d oxford light coat weight 3.5 lbs for 3 people.
OB Group Tarp 70d heavy coat 3 lbs for 5 people."

Thanks for this input David.
Most NOLS tent/cook groups are going out at 4 folks, but that's minor.

Thelma fly's – the ones mentioned here and that hangs in the Smithsonian are mostly used only on base camps now. We are typically using Garuda Nuk Tuks and Mountain Hardwear Kivas as a 3-4 season tent and some Mtn. Hardwear tents for Alaska, Patagonia and PNW mountaineering sections.

Still, there are lighter options around. One of the things we need to address is mosquitos and west nile. Although I believe that it doesn't pose a significant threat to our students, you would be amazed at how big of an issue it is for parents. Ryan Jordan had some great ideas on easy, inexpensive ways to either modify our existing shelters or future shelters to be bug proof, while still saving a lot of weight over what we are currently using.

I haven't worked for OB, though I am somewhat familiar with the school and have worked with a lot of former OB instructors at NOLS. My understanding is that the pedagogy is different between the two schools as well as the stated "desired outcomes" – though I believe that there are a lot of similar outcomes.

10 person cook groups would not really support our LNT curriculum, and would pose a challenge to the skills side of learning to cook in my opinion. At the same time, cook and tent group sizes is something we are looking at.

Do you think that fuel consuption increases with the larger cook group sizes? We are doing two person cook groups on the Lightweight courses and found that it increased our cooking efficiency significantly over a four person group.

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

This morning I took a detour to Barnes & Noble, and picked up a copy of the NOLS cookbook (for some reason I don't own it, and I own pretty much every trail cookbook). So I got reading and whatnot.

Here is my question:
What is the reasoning behind the carrying of supplies of food? Is it to keep it as a group? I guess my question is behind carrying bulk items, not premade up meals. My question comes, I guess, from that I have never done much traditional group backpacking. I have always carried my food, and only my food. Even in group trips we all do this. We are responsible for feeding ourselves. That means unless we make arrangements with another person, we are cooking, cleaning and feeding ourselves. Doesn't mean we don't share ;-) But I guess if I had been a boy and did Boy Scouts or such I might have got the group mentality.

The other question I have about the book is they use traditional items like raw rice, etc. Will that change in an effort to lower weight? If you go to instant items, you use less fuel, hence less weight. Your cleanup is also easier, meaning less things like scrub pads, soap, etc. And cuts camp time down. Will this change? It sounds like the small groups cook their meals in one pot? Will this change at all to cut pack weight? What type of pans do they use currently? Will they go to Ti?

Also, you mentioned that cooking is a big part of the curriculum. That is interesting.

Anyways, sorry for the ramblings…..maybe if I hadn't gotten back into backpacking in my late twenties, I might have done something like NOLS.

[Author]

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