Newbie help on lightweight shelters…

[David Ure]

Hi all,

I am a relative newbie to light backpacking and judging by my > than 55Lb packing in recent years I have obviously been living in more relative ‘pain’ than necessary. I am considering the following shelter options and would like some honest perspective. Please consider that I am going from a 7 plus Lb 2 person shelter and I am trying to not go too extreme. Some of the following are not available in Canada or alternatively, I am having a difficult time locating retail examples so hence my need to confer with the experts. All have benefits and advantages, at least on paper, but the more I look, the more I struggle with decision making. The only real caveat is that I would like to have a relative free standing structure as I often camp on beaches (yes, we actually have these in Canada).

-BD Lightsabre plus ID siltarp (approximately 1 lb 15 oz). I like the extra room that the BD provides (but have not actually seen one in person as they are not sold in Canada) but want the tarp for inclement weather and / or for cooking. Of course, the thought of ‘packability’ is attractive as well, affording me the opportunity to carry a much smaller, lighter back pack.

-SD Mach 1. At 3 Lb 10 oz not the lightest, but 22 sq ft of room and a huge vestibule that can be propped up with trekking poles. Only 31 inches of headroom though.

-MSR Hubba. 3 Lbs, great headroom, excellent side entry, but very narrow. I had a chance to lay down in a retail example and know that most people do not sleep firmly on their backs, but I am just over 24 inches wide (shoulder not belt girth) and the Hubba is only 26 inches. Plus at only 17 sq ft of living space…

-Big Agnes SL1. 2 Lbs 12 oz (depends who you talk to). Has to have the sides guyed out well to maximize interior space. The floor is so thin that one would probably need a footprint which adds 6 oz.

-Marmot EOS 1P. 2 Lbs 14 oz. I have heard that the length is overstated and a 6 footer will be cramped.

-Zeus 1EXO. 3 Lbs. The only thing that I have heard is because of the single wall design, there is a good chance of condensation.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated. I am shooting for a sub 20 lb pack and I am almost there. Thanks in advance,

David

[Glenn Roberts]

1. BD Lightsabre: I ordered one, and it never made it out of the living room before being sent back. It was a real pain to assemble – the poles didn’t want to go in easily, nor stay in place. I ended up sitting crosslegged on the floor, with my arms wrapped around the d—-d thing to finally get it all together. Then, when I went to get in, I found that I couldn’t bend double enough to get in without stubbing my head on the top of the door. (I’m only about 5’10” tall.) It went back into the box, and returned for a refund. If you’re into low-volume shelters, I’d recommend an Integral Designs Salathe bivy with one of their 5×8 silnylon tarps to pitch over it for a little living area in the rain.

2. Hubba – currently my tent of choice. It’s not only freestanding, but the fly-only pitch means I have a lunchtime shelter that sets up quickly in the rain (something I did a lot with a tarp.) Yes, the sleeping area is a little narrow, and there’s not a lot of extra floor space for gear – but there is a decent vestibule, easily accessed by the door (both oriented along the long side, not the end – a real design plus) – the arrangement effectively extends the living area.

The Hubba replaced a Zoid 1 which was also a really nice tent. It had adequate headroom (but not as much as the Hubba), and the floor layout gave you a lot of space for storing gear at night. However, it’s not freestanding, couldn’t be pitched fly-only, and was not as easy to get in or out of. The Hubba weighs about 3 ounces more than the Zoid, but the convenience of the Hubba is well worth it. Both tents pitch equally easily – no hassles at all.

Hope this helps.

[David Ure]

Thanks Glen; much appreciated!

[paul johnson]

David,

I have some experience with two of the tents that you are interested in.

1. BD Lightsabre – i like it. packs small. lighter than all other bivy shelters that i am familiar with. [Note: bivy “shelters” – my chosen term for those bivies with a pre-curved shock-corded pole to provide headroom vs. a bivy “sack” having either a wire-hoop to hold the fabric off of your face or no hoop at all]. As delivered, Lightsabre poles are a VERY tight fit – just like Glenn said. this is, presumably, to keep the fabric very taut. i cut small amts off of the ends to shorten them – very small, incremental “steps” & then tested to make sure that i didn’t cut them too short & ruin them – so, cut-test-cut-test… until i got the lengths right. please think carefully about the potential for ruining the poles b/f you try this. i, perhaps foolishly, was willing to take the risk. now it goes together much easier & is still taut. seems to be a bit more water-resistant than some would have us believe, but i don’t trust it for extended, heavy down-pours since it’s made of Epic. Reasonable price compared to GTX & eVENT laminates, but those of course are fully waterproof & eVENT breathes better, IMHO – i have two eVENT bivies also. Biggest down-side is that you need to seam-seal it yourself (i hate seam-sealing). if i did happen to get the weather wrong on a 3-day, i have my poncho-tarp to pitch over it (luckily i haven’t had to do this yet, as my tarp skills are a minus 3 on a scale of 1 to 10!!!). i don’t bring a separate tarp with me. this is to save weight, since most of the time i use a poncho for raingear. i would use the poncho-tarp over the Lightsabre. i have no trouble getting into & out of the Lightsabre, but then, i’m a fair bit shorter than Glenn. i can see that it would be a bit more difficult for someone of a more normal/average height.

MountainLaurelDesigns (Mr. Ron Bell) also sells Epic Bivies (sacks w/ wire hoop). Very light. Mr. Bell will do custom work for you at a very small additional fee – he is currently making a custom one for me. You might want to check out his company MLD.

2. BA Seedhouse 1SL – bought it; sold it. very nice, light tent. set it up & never used it b/c it still was bigger than what i was looking for. good head room at the door end. floor is thin as you stated. Min. wt. was 2lb 8oz. Figure ~2lb, 10oz trail wt. w/Ti skewers for stakes (8 Ti skewers = ~2oz). To put it in perspective, this is approx. what a Bibler Tripod bivy weighs, yet you’re gettin’ a full blown tent with the Seedhouse 1SL.

I’m biased toward bivies – small, light, good if the wind kicks up, easy to “heat up” in the cold weather due to the small mass of air inside of the bivy, & some have a fair amt of headroom, & easy/quick to set up – great for stealth camping as they are fairly low to the ground & some come in “stealth” colors. downsides include potential for claustrophobia & under the right conditions potential for significant condensation – especially if you are NOT exhaling your breath out of the bivy.

At this pt in time, the only other tent i’m investigating & plan to purchase & try out is the SixMoonDesigns Lunar Solo ‘e’. you might want to check it out. if you have ques. about it, start a thread here on BPL to Mr. Ron Moak of SixMoonDesigns (owner??? and designer??? of SMD/gear) – he participates in these forums from time-to-time. At 24oz to 27.5oz, depending upon floor weight, it is lighter than nearly all bivy “shelters” (many bivy “sacks” are lighter, though far smaller). it is a single wall tent, which normally i would steer clear of for the Northeast (having learned my lesson the hard way), but this one intriques me b/c of the 15″ of bug netting on 4 sides plus a full mesh front. Might work out fine in the hot, humid, & rainy Northeast. [Mr. Moak, what do you think?]

hope this info helps.

[paul johnson]

Glenn,

Can you please compare the ventilation aspects of the Hubba vs. Zoid 1 under diff conditions, particularly when the flies are fully deployed for rainy conditions? What I’m thinking of here is the vent at the peak of the Zoid 1 which helps airflow. I’m not sure if the Hubba has anything similar.

also, does the hubba req. that the fly be guy-ed out at any point(s) in order to keep it off of the mesh? the BA seedhouse 1SL req. 2 guyouts (“amid ship” – one on each of the long sides).

Many thanks,
pj

[Glenn Roberts]

Sure, PJ – though two caveats at the beginning. First, I camp in the cold, hot, humid, wet, dry Midwest (Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana; you’ll get some or all of the above conditions on any given trip) – there isn’t any real good way to avoid some condensation on any tent – or tarp – I’ve ever used. Second, the Hubba is a this-season replacement for the Zoid 1; I don’t have a lot of experience with it yet, so a lot of what I say will be based on first impressions.

I’ve never had any serious condensation issues with either tent. Sure, there’s some on the inside of the fly in the morning; if my head brushes against the top of the tent (possible in the Zoid, not an issue in the Hubba) I’ll shake a few drops loose onto my shoulders or hair, but not enough to pay any attention to. It seems to be worst when we’ve had a hot, humid spring or fall day (say, 80’s with 75% humidity) followed by a dip into the 50’s overnight. But, most days, the fly will pretty well dry by the time I finish breakfast. Also, I only button down the fly if it’s raining; otherwise, I leave the vestibule at least half open, which handles a lot of potential problems right there.

There is one section of the Zoid (opposite wall from the door) where the fly appears to lay against the inner wall; no guy-out is provided – I think there were some other posts about this. That would seem a logical spot for condensation to appear, but I don’t ever remember any particular problem there. As far as the vent, I’m sure it helps, though I’m not sure how much. Half the time, I forget to prop it open, and I haven’t noticed any appreciable difference in the amount of condensation. However, this could again be due to the fact that I usually leave the vestibule tied back -but open or closed, I’ve never had enough condensation to be a problem. I’ve only been through 2 or 3 heavy rains in this tent, with the vestibule closed. I can’t remember whether I thought to prop the vent open, but I don’t recall any serious condensation issues during any of those outings.

The Hubba places the door on the long side; the fly forms a vestibule that runs the long dimension of the tent, and a smaller, vestibule-shaped area on the non-door side. Both have to be guyed out away from the tent. There’s no roof venting, but the two vestibule-style guyouts seem to more than make up for it. The Hubba requires six stakes, total; the Zoid, as I recall, takes 7 or 8. So far (2 low-humidity trips with the fly on and vestibule half-open) I’ve had no condensation issues at all; I haven’t encountered any rain yet.

Of course, on a lot of trips, condensation isn’t an issue at all – I don’t pitch the fly on a clear night and (except on those spring/fall nights above) condensation never forms.

I wish I could have provided better information, and hope this helps.

[David Ure]

Thanks Paul and Glen for your excellent insight and prompt responses. Most of my hiking is in relatively humid areas and condensation is a big concern to me…steam baths don’t interest me.

I am going to look at the Hubba in person again tomorrow and might just ‘pull the pin.’ Just having some trouble getting the lightness of the Lightsabre out of my head…just have to convince my wife that I need both(!)

[Anonymous]

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[EndoftheTrail]

David:

You can scratch off the Zeus, given that you camp in humid areas. You will likely have lots of condesation problems with this one, as it is made of non-breathable fabric.

For drier, windier areas, the vents will help some, but not in warm, still climates.

[paul johnson]

Glenn,

Many thanks for the prompt reply. Good info. Addressed my questions.

David,

You need both!! :)

Buy your wife something nice. make that two “somethings”.

Condensation can form with nearly any shelter under the right conditions. Most of the time, I don’t have too much condensation with bivies since I position the opening & my nose so that I exhale most of the water vapor out through the opening. Also, I sleep like I’m dead – i.e. on my back w/o tossing & turning. So, I’m basically in the same position in the morning. Yes, sweat can acct. for some condensation, but not as much as exhaled water vapor. I forget the exact ratios I read some years ago.

[Anyone out there know total amts of water lost during a normal night’s sleep & the “breakdown” b/t exhaled water vapor & sweat? I’ve read anywhere b/t 16oz & 32oz total, except for one website which said 64oz (that’s a little hard to believe, as 64oz is ~4lbs). I notice that I’m only ~0.5-1.0 lb lighter in the morning than when I go to bed at night – so that’s ~16oz or less of water loss, assuming (not really a good assumption) all wt loss is due to water loss. I know various factors can affect wt & water loss – e.g. body’s state of hydration, ambient temp, rel. humidity, timing/size/content of prev. meal, phys. cond., fatigue, # hrs slept, medications, body surface area (size, wt., & also ratio b/t them), kidney function, age, gender, basal metabolic rate, etc..]

If you end up waiting to purchase, I rcv’d a custom eVENT bivy sack from Wild Things yesterday. It has no wire hoop. Fashioned one yesterday from the lightest coat hanger we had “hanging” (literally) around & installed it. Works ‘ok’, but needs some tweaks. Not sure yet if I will use a homemade wire hoop with it. I hope to try it out in a couple of weeks. If you are interested, I can post my impressions after I use it a few times under diff. conditions.

[David Ure]

That is an interesting option. I have clearly come to the right place to seek knowledge.

Paul, this may come as a dumb question but how much room is there within the Lightsabre ‘hood’ to store say, a small pack? Not that I would store it there but I want to get a sense of the relative claustrophobia. How far is your face from the top? (once again I cannot get the Lightsabre in Canada without ordering it direct and want to make sure prior to paying 2 x shipping).

[David Ure]

Paul, this may come as a dumb question but how much room is there within the Lightsabre ‘hood’ to store say, a small pack? Not that I would store it there but I want to get a sense of the relative claustrophobia. How far is your face from the top? (once again I cannot get the Lightsabre in Canada without ordering it direct and want to make sure prior to paying 2 x shipping).

Glenn, am I to understand that the tent wall on the opposing side of vestibule on the Hubba is guyed out? If so, does this help with the perceived sense of the tent being wider? I may have misunderstood you, however. I like the Hubba but am still turned off a little by the width.

[paul johnson]

David,

There is a small amount of room on either side & above your head. Your face would NOT be right up against the mesh unless you “scootched” down towards the foot of the bivy. From the standpoint of exhaling, this is not optimal as compared to the Integral Designs Salathe which has only a very low wire to hold the fabric off of your face. In the Salathe virtually all of your exhaled breath exits the bivy. However, in the Lightsabre you can position yourself & the bivy’s opening so that much/most of your exhaled breath goes out of the bivy even if it’s raining due to the short overhang the bivy has.

I think the head room is ~25″ max – plenty of room to read, turn over, etc.

I think the best way to ans. your “room” question is as follows:

The Lightsabre is basically comparable to the Integral Designs eVENT Unishelter (it’s my winter bivy) and Tegral-Tex Unishelter.

Now the ‘Uni’ you can prob. easily check out in Canada. Find one, bring your gear with you, & climb in it & try it out for size. The ‘Uni’ is pretty much similar to the Lightsabre in terms of room. They’re close enough in size so that you will get the idea of how “roomy” (if we can use this word in this context) they are.

Hope this ans. your ques.

[Glenn Roberts]

You are right – both sides of the Hubba guy out, forming a large vestibule (accessible from inside, through the door) and a smaller vestibule (not accessible from inside, and not easily accessible from outside since there’s no zipper on that side.) It really does help the Hubba seem roomier, and definitely adds to the livability; in my own opinion, it really does offset the admittedly narrow sleeping floor. If you absolutely want a tent, but want a floor that’s wider at the chest and head, get the Zoid 1. Either of these MSR tents will do you proud.

If you decide on a bivy instead of a tent, I think you’d be better off with the either of the Integral Designs models Paul mentioned than you would with the Lightsaber. I’ve used a Salathe in the past, and everything Paul says is right on the money – the top zips down to your waist, fully backed by bug netting; I pulled the wire hoop out of mine – found that my shoulders and the boots I kept under my head, supporting my Dromedary pillow, kept the mesh mostly off my face. (By the way, inflate a Dromedary with air at night, and you get a really comfy pillow.) My son has a Unishelter which he likes – liked the extra headroom a lot, he said. He’s bigger than I am, but had no problems getting in and out (unlike my experience with Lightsaber.) Go with ID stuff – it’s slightly heavier, but the few ounces is well worth it.

Having used both tents and bivies, I’m staying with a tent – for now. However, all this talk about the Salathe (and a couple of off-forum posts with Paul) have me thinking I need to put the Salathe on my Christmas list. (My previous one went with a tentless buddy when he moved to Colorado.)

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