Used Toilet Paper – Pack it out!

[Matthew mcgurk]

I sugggested it but yes you need to be carefull because it can float. Make sure you have it pushed down with a log and have water handy. It was just a suggestion I really think a deep hole is the best way. I dig holes with a shovel it is something I dont cut weight on because I like to dig a really deep hole. I hear some saying turn over a rock. That just is not deep enough. Also there are tp's that degrade rapidly.

[EndoftheTrail]

"Actually I "intended" my message to be conditions dependent. Location is secondary as a consideration. Any use of fire in the backcountry requires awareness of conditions. I thought the post made that clear. Apparently not. :("

GOOD GAWD that is one ornery post! I think by different location… differences in weather conditions, ground conditions, other pertinent situations, etc., etc. are implied. Many of us might just be more aware than you give us credit for, old man. :)

[Erik Basil]

Just back from a tip in the Sierra, where we got nailed by an extended rain storm and decided to use an established drover camp one evening. We encountered an area that looked perfect for digging our cathole/trench and discovered it surely was… by finding multiple catholes that had been Dug Up by animals. At least two appeared to have been "rock lift and replace" holes, but I really didn't spend a lot of time checking it all out in detail.

In some cases, the previous visitors had apparently buried their TP or wet-naps: because they were evident.

We try to stick with the 6"/trowel depth standard and we Wag Bag out our TP and wipes.

[Dena Kelley]

Mathew-

You stated, "I sugggested it but yes you need to be carefull because it can float. Make sure you have it pushed down with a log and have water handy. It was just a suggestion I really think a deep hole is the best way. I dig holes with a shovel it is something I dont cut weight on because I like to dig a really deep hole. I hear some saying turn over a rock. That just is not deep enough. Also there are tp's that degrade rapidly."

How deep are you digging? Everything I had read stated that 6" was the optimal depth because there's still plenty of microorganisms in the dirt at that level to aid in decomposition in the quickest period of time.

[Diane “Piper” Soini]

I did not intend my message to be location dependent. When it comes to bathroom habits, people become unable to you know, do the deed, if their habits are changed. Better not to have a habit like burning your TP that can result in the destruction of large swaths of wilderness. If you have to have a bad TP habit, just leave your TP under a rock. That will only annoy people, not close trails and burn up thousands of acres of wilderness.

[EndoftheTrail]

@ Piper

OK, I misunderstood you — and heck, probably misunderstood Tom as well…

[Anonymous]

"GOOD GAWD that is one ornery post!"

More like a measured response to someone who presumes to interpret someone else's post for the community, and get it totally wrong in the bargain.

"I think by different location… differences in weather conditions, ground conditions, other pertinent situations, etc., etc. are implied."

If you want a fig leaf, I won't stand in your way, but it would be wise to bear in mind that conditions vary wildly from the norm by location, increasingly so in an age of climate change, and any implied set of conditions associated with a location must be subordinated to actual conditions prevailing at the point in time when you are preparing to act. There is no substitute for real time judgment, which in turn implies that actions will vary accordingly. Thus there will be no one way that is best for all situations, which is the apparent attitude I have been arguing against in this thread. For me, at least, the conditions I encounter will always guide my behavior, without regard for the location.

"Many of us might just be more aware than you give us credit for, old man."

Not sure what you're getting at. My assumption has always been that we're all sentient beings here. As for being an old man: Careful, Ben. I'm pretty sure I can still hold your feet to the fire. :)

[EndoftheTrail]

"As for being an old man: Careful, Ben. I'm pretty sure I can still hold your feet to the fire. :)"

I take it from your smiley that you are happily looking forward to the day when we will be sharing the same hot fire. :)

[Lynn Tramper]

This is from the New Zealand equivalent of the forest service. Seems sensible to me:

Toilet paper
-If you have to use paper, use only plain, unbleached, non-perfumed types.

-Use toilet paper sparingly.

-Do not burn toilet paper, as this can result in wildfires. Bury paper in your shallow hole or carry it out with you in a plastic bag.

-Try using natural materials such as bark or leaf vegetation (non-prickly!) or snow instead. Natural 'toilet paper' is as sanitary as processed toilet paper and blends back easily into the environment.

[Anonymous]

"I take it from your smiley that you are happily looking forward to the day when we will be sharing the same hot fire. :)"

Among others who qualify for that rarified status. I shudder to think of what it would be like upstairs with a bunch of beardless Talibs. My recurring nightmare is that such a fate is exactly what Old Satan has in mind for me. Arrrgggghhhhhh!!

[EndoftheTrail]

"I shudder to think of what it would be like upstairs with a bunch of beardless Talibs."

Don't worry yourself about the Talibs. They don't use TP.

[Tim Zen]

by THE ASSOCIATED PRESSJULY 23, 2015, 6:55 P.M. E.D.T.

BOISE, Idaho — Authorities say a cyclist started a 73-acre wildfire in southwest Idaho by lighting his toilet paper on fire after taking a comfort break.

U.S. Bureau of Land Management officials say the cyclist stopped to defecate in a ravine in the Boise foothills on Wednesday afternoon. The man then lit the toilet paper on fire but lost control of the embers in the dry grass while trying to extinguishing the waste.

Firefighters contained the flames several hours later.

Investigators say the man contacted them Thursday morning and his story matched the evidence found at the scene.

The BLM did not release the name of the cyclist. However, officials say he will be fined for causing the fire.

Even a video from B (of land) M — strange how that worked out (oopps) on USA Today.

He did come forward to BLM. BLM gave him Clelland's book to read.

[Jeffs Eleven]

"BLM gave him Clelland's book to read."

That is awesome!

Fret for your sanitation, river rocks!!

[jscott]

And when you're in bear country, do you…put it in your Bearikade with your food? I'm afraid that's a bridge too far for me at least.

I've been hiking for thirty years and I do occasionally see t.p. that bears have dug up–once every few years, perhaps.

Easiest to burn it, if there's a ring; or bury it with pee and/or water. TP is made from…wood products.

A single horse in a single poo… (censored) leaves more trace than I will in a week. And that poo…(censored by moderator) ain't buried.

I haven't read the whole post; sorry if I'm repeating things written earlier.

[Richard May]

For y'alls amusement, this is my p00p kit. Two bags. The dirty TP goes into one bag and then gets second bagged with the spade and clean TP.

But I am considering the "TP Puree" method described above. Seems reasonable to me

Yes, that spade is awaiting first use in about 10 days. :D

[Mark Ries]

Maybe it's been mentioned but the little black bags that you get at petsmart for picking up dog doo work good for a used tp bag and they are ul. Just knot the bag loosely and stick in a ziplock. My grand daughter finds it less gross if you can't see the used TP I agree

[EndoftheTrail]

Maybe desert hiking excepting… just wash with water — and then sanitize your hands with a couple drops of Purrell. This is definitely one learned cultural encumbrance that can be safely left at home when heading out to experience Nature.

[David Gardner]

True LNT camping requires that you pack out all of your waste, not just TP. This is the legally required protocol now on Mt. Shasta in Northern California, and I suspect it will soon be the same in other heavily used areas. At the Mt. Shasta trailheads they have packages that include a 12" x 12" paper target (literally) and sealable baggies. You take as many as you're likely to need, i.e., at least one per day. I put the daily bags in an odor-proof turkey baster bag with a twist tie, which then goes in a separate stuff sack from food and gets carried in an outside mesh pocket of my pack. I hang the waste sack just like a bear bag. Where a bear cannister is required I still hang the waste bag, because the cannister is only required for food, and there's no way I'm putting the waste in close proximity to food.

Saves a lot of work digging holes. The only real drag is that my pack doesn't get lighter as the trip goes along and food is consumed.

[jscott]

1.) bears dig up poo, so
2.) you pack out poo/used t.p.
3.) you will not put it in a bear canister, so you hang it
4.) hanging food is illegal in places
5.) but poo is food to bears; they will go after it
6.) so you…bury it?

[David Gardner]

If a ranger ever tells me that poo is food then I won't hang it where cannisters are required. Hasn't happened yet, but if it does I will start carrying two cannisters and/or choose other routes. LNT.

[Cayenne Redmonk]

Not knowing how to go free leads to all sorts issues.

Then there is the other issue, chafe, because smearing fecal matter around with paper is as clean as it sounds.

[Hikin’ Jim]

Having been a hiker and backpacker for the last half century, I am extremely skeptical that animals dig up excrement in the areas I travel in (primarily California but also the US Southwest, particularly Arizona). Maybe it happens elsewhere, but I've not seen it here. What animal is accused of doing this? And this animal lives in all continents in all nations in all regions at all elevations in all life zones in all biotic communities? Um, yeah right. I call "BS".

I can easily produce dozens of photos of people leaving excrement or paper right on top of the ground with no attempt whatsoever to bury or cover, but I've never even once seen a credible photo of excrement being dug up.

And if it's really attractive to animals, then they'd be chewing through packs to get to it. You'd be forced to put it in some rodent proof container (presuming the mythical animal that digs up excrement and paper is a rodent) or your bear canister. I can find dozens of examples of animals chewing through packs after food, but no mention ever of a person's pack ever being chewed through for the excrement clinging to TP.

Seeing paper above ground is not evidence that an animal has dug it up. The real culprit is lazy and/or ignorant people who don't even try to bury it properly.

It's very well meaning to pack out your paper, but it's pointless and serves no demonstrable purpose. The Univ. of Tasmania study found that toilet paper was essentially indistinguishable from its surroundings after a year in almost all climates tested. I think high and dry (just going of my admittedly fallible memory here) was the only climate tested where the paper was distinguishable after a year. Examples of other paper products persistence is not relevant to toilet paper. Toilet paper is specifically designed to degrade. Recall that much of the US and the world is on septic tanks.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving
Hikin' Jim's Blog

[Jim C]

I'm adding my two cents to a discussion that probably doesn't need it, but nonetheless…

I understand where the pack-it-out absolutists are coming from, I really do. But I don't think it's a useful stance to take because some people simply aren't going to follow that advice. I'm probably one of them. Call me stubborn, thick skulled, whatever, but my mind is 99.44% made up on this, and it would take more than a slogan to get me to change my mind, and I know I'm not alone on this.

To add even more controversy to an already controversial topic, I liken this absolutist approach to abstinence-only sex ed for teenagers: high minded, but not very realistic.

So it is reasonable to offer an alternative. If you keep repeating "pack it in, pack it out", you might be able to convince one out of every hundred people, but the majority are going to be unswayed and keep at their (possibly bad) habits.

Instead, a more reasonable and responsible message would be "You really ought to pack it out, but if you can't or won't, here are some ways to responsibly ensure your TP doesn't taint the landscape and spoil things for others." Many of these techniques have been discussed here, and this has been very helpful.

Some might be thinking, well, if you refuse to pack it out, then you've got no business in the wilderness. If it comes from a ranger, that means something, but otherwise, the truth is, that admonition carries as much weight as a BPLer: not much*.

I think it's safe to say that every single one of us wants a pristine wilderness for us and others to enjoy. Many of us just want an alternative means to that ends than carrying used TP with us. With more pragmatism, and less dogmatism, people can be taught to do their business in a way that is respectful of others and the environment.

* Was that clever? I think that was clever.

[Bean]

"I liken this absolutist approach to abstinence-only sex ed for teenagers"

Good analogy.

[NJ Drew]

For those who wish to LNT, but don't want to pack it out, whats your thought on using a microbe mix for buried excrement? P**p puree might be just as effective, but I cant see convincing grown adults to mix their p**p as a viable option either. For those not familiar with microbe mixes like Sun-Mar Micro Mix they are design to speed up waste decay in composting toilets. Said to be all organic and safe for the environment.

[Author]

Posts