freezer bag cooking

Found it interesting that a crew was there this past summer, water was in short supply in places. But yet, they wanted them to use that precious water to wash pots, instead of allowing turkey bags. They used the turkey bags anyway btw,as did a lot of crews that came prepared to. Once the ranger is gone, you do what you want.

You have to carry un-eaten food scraped from a pot anyway to the place you can dispose it, only say hello to the gallon ziplock yum-yum bags instead of the turkey bags. And yes that goes in someones pack too, and in the bear bags.

I can believe that it is an attempt to cut down on garbage wt that has to be carried out. I dont buy the "green" angle at all, other Philmont actions dont support that at all. Look at the amount of plastic and paper waste in the food packaging.

I sent an email to Philmont asking about some of these issues. Recieved no response.
In it I asked if we were to be required to carry an 8l pot for a ranger to demonstrate the one pot method? I basically said it would be fine with us if the ranger carried that pot.

> From what I've seen, Philmont practice of LNT is certainly not as strong or as consistent as it could be.

When our crew went to Philmont in 2009, we went prepared to do LNT cooking, using only their own packages – zero extra waste – zero clean up, LNT bear bagging that didn't damage the trees, etc…
At base camp when I pushed to allow our crew to use these LNT techniques, the head ranger pushed back and said, "We don't really do Leave No Trace at Philmont. What we actually do is called "Concentrated Impact."

And if you step back and think about Philmont policies and techniques they do fit the model of concentrating the damage to nearby tie-off trees, sump areas, fire rings, and tent areas at each camp.

It is another, and probably easier, way of trying to minimize damage to the ranch given 20,000 campers pouring through each year, many untrained in LNT.

I sure would have liked to have my scouts be given the opportunity to do LNT at Philmont, but it is their ranch and their rules.

"I sure would have liked to have my scouts be given the opportunity to do LNT at Philmont, but it is their ranch and their rules."

Yes, their rules, but as a BSA members I would sure like to think its our ranch too.

However, the BSA doesnt exactly have a track record of being the go-to experts for many things. Certainly not backpacking, low impact camping, or even youth protection.
They have always been a reactionary organization, and slow. or late, to change with times.

I looked a picture the other day where boy scouts were handing out pouches of tobacco to flood victims in the 1920s. Tobacco. Times change, the scouts change too. What was OK yesterday or today , wont be tomorrow.

Just as certain as 60 lb backpacks are out of vogue, and so is "real" cooking in the backcountry, so will become other things they staunchly try to adhere to today.

As a LNT trainer, let me clarify the concept of "Concentrated Impact" – it is a "containment" approach for high traffic areas to be limited to already impacted sites … the idea is to limit tents, kitchen areas, etc. to already existing impacted areas and NOT CREATE NEW impacted sites and also NOT TO EXPAND out those already existing impacted sites.

In using this approach, the impacted sites should be on durable surfaces … which unfortunately, is not always the case in Philmont … and that consequently offers opportunities to do LNT remedial practices.

… and … of course, even if using that approach, all 7 of the LNT principles are still to be followed & practiced.

As George suggests with a difference in approach, I think that it is very possible for Philmont to improve its practice of LNT to eliminate or at least minimize "concentrated impact" compromises. It would be great if a trek to Philmont could role model the best in LNT practices for the lads …

visibility

I found this thread and made my first post before I became consumed with school and work. I tried to come back about a month ago and I'm not sure if it was my mistake, but it seemed like I had to be a paying subscriber to post.

I read through the posts after mine and made my remarks in order of their appearance. I did go back and change a couple of things as your guys’ conversation evolved.

I just want to say that I have been trying to get into website design for a while, so I built a website that I hope will become a great resource to help people going to Philmont. I know in my summers working on staff and in my experience going to Philmont as a scout on trek that it is difficult to find reliable information online. I want to say that this site is and always will be a free resource. I even included a forum section. The web site is http://www.PlanPhilmont.com and if you guys have any suggestions for topics/articles you can make a post in the forums or send me an email at Jphelps@PlanPhilmont.com. Or if you want to ask me a direct question you can send me an email too.

Food Bags
I caution you that the manufacturer bags are NOT designed to be cooked in. Even though it is Mountain House food, it is not the same packaging (foil lined) that you would purchase at a sporting goods store. Philmont is the number 2 user of freeze dried food in the world (behind the US military) and to save money they special order meals from Mountain House to not be foil lined. It is just a thin plastic. There is one exception, the Chicken Salad for lunch is a cold hydrate.
Philmont Leave No Trace
I cannot speak for other departments at Philmont (Back Country Camps), but the Ranger Department strives to instill the ethics of Leave No Trace in every person we meet. As for the Styrofoam cups, it is done as a courtesy to advisers. It is 100% up to the staff at a camp weather to use Styrofoam or to allow advisers to use their dishware (that they have to wash). I have seen about a 50/50 use of both. Philmont is a unique place for several reasons. Philmont has always regarded their property to be a concentrated camping environment. Recently we began incorporating Leave No Trace principals on property with good results. As of 2012 we are requiring sticks to protect the bark on trees. This will help protect what is left, but with 25,000 people hiking through the property, each one required to hang bear bags or be cited for Bear Baiting (which is a felony in New Mexico) there will be damage. Just as we build trails, latrines, and campsites, we sacrifice a small amount of land to area the greater beauty. Further with any organization that has over 1200 employees, there will be some degree of inconsistency (not an excuse, just a fact).
Bowl Rehydrating
I won’t lie, when I went on trek to Philmont that is the method my crew used on both of our treks. There were two drawbacks we saw. First, we sometimes did not have big enough bowls to mix all the food in our bowl without overflowing. Second, we usually ate cold food every night. Philmont makes no exceptions, you are required to take at least one 8 quart cooking pot. Your ranger is required to teach you the “One Pot” cooking method. I have been advised in the past by my managers not to allow it while I am with the crew.
While at Philmont, the goal is to get crews away from acting as individuals and to encourage team building. Making dinner together i
Back Country Illness
MAKE SURE TO BRING HAND SANITIZER! Philmont changes their stance every year. Philmont has had a battle the past few years with the Norwalk Virus. Each summer it plagues staff and campers alike. Make sure you teach your crew to use hand sanitizer before every meal and to wash up frequently. I have never fell ill to it despite having several participants who catch it. I attribute this to my religiously using hand sanitizer and always sanitizing my dishes.
Proper “Trail Etiquette” when sharing snack food is to pour trail mix (or anything else) onto the hand of the person you are sharing with. That way they you don’t get their germs in your food. I make it a point if I put my fingers inside a trail mix bag, I do not share with other people.
If you drink untreated water at Philmont, your largest concern will be for Giardia. It will take you about 2 weeks before you get diarrhea resembling sea foam.
Cleaning Pots
It uses about 2-3 cups of water. If you use the scraper I mentioned in my previous post, you can get away with just a few ounces of water. Most rangers have a rule with scouts: Eat all the food. With teenagers, that is usually easy to accomplish. You will be eating 2-3,000 calories a day and still be burning body fat. Leftover food should NOT be an issue. If it is, fatigue will become an issue with your crew.
In Regards to the other waste in the meals, in 2011 Philmont began a recycling initiative to recycle meal bags. In 2012 that expanded to all cardboard in the meals. From what I understand we are going to be expanding the recycling program as well.
Philmont Concentrated Camping
Tony Ronco hit it right on the head. Your ranger will even discuss the differences between Pure LNT camping and Concentrated Camping. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY for 25,000 campers to go through Philmont without causing a problem. A funny story that the Program Director Mark Anderson tells now and again is how he went to a conference on pooping outdoors. If you do the math, 25,000 campers and 1,000 staffers pooping for about 75 days (about how long the summer season is) makes about 1.9 million cat holes. I admit a Latrine isn’t too Leave No Trace, but since you won’t get scouts to pack out their own poo we have to make leave a trace with a building and a concentrated impact on the camp.
I will be the first to admit that Philmont is by NO means the leader the best Leave No Trace practices. They are making HUGE movement and leading the way within the BSA to push LNT camping. The Boy Scouts of America are notorious for being the Number 1 offenders of the forest service. Philmont influences almost every district in the Boy Scouts of America every summer. If we can change the minds and convert just a few people each year in each district we can start making a change that will impact all of the Boy Scouts.

"While at Philmont, the goal is to get crews away from acting as individuals and to encourage team building."

OK I'm trying to understand the reasoning behind this. So let's compare the two methods and see how or if we are encouraging the crew to act as individual and where the team building factors in.

Philmont method:
Two cooks assemble needed items
Dump contents of several meal pouches into large pot
Heat water and add, wait for rehydration
Serve to crew.
Clean up crew cleans large pot, serving spoon, individual bowls and spoons

Bowl method:
Two cooks assemble needed items
Dump contents of several meal pouches into individual bowls
Heat water and add to individual bowl, wait for rehydration
Serve to crew.
Clean up crew cleans individual bowls and spoons.

Both crews have a cooking and cleaning team that prepares and serves the meal, and everyone eats together, then cleans up.
Seems to me the bowl method crew has more time to bond (team building) since they're not wasting time doing dishes. Unless you consider KP a team building exercise.

There is a huge number of inexperienced backpackers coming to Philmont, and the BSA has some responsibility for their safety and well being while there.

This is what is at the root of many Philmont rules. This is why they want to get everyone to do everything the same way. Only thru attempting to control everything you do, and exactly how you do it, do they feel comfortable with that responsibility.

When food was actually cooked, it made sense to only cook one pot. That was obviously lighter, and easier.

When rehydrating, it isnt necessarilly. It does result in hotter food however, than when done individually in smaller containers. But it requires bringing a large pot that just isnt needed any more.

The argument that the Philmont way promotes unity is a farce. How does having two boys do all the cooking do that? What about un-equal shares of food eaten, does that promote unity ? Not for the kid that feels he didnt get his fair share.

BSA is just slow to change, and Philmont is another example of that.

Only in BSA can a boy spend 11 days backpacking, and when done, still not know how to go real backpacking. Of course, they are being taught that even carrying 3-4 days food is a lot.

Hand sanitizer is actually less effective than soap. I would rather have clean hands, than dirty , "sanitized" hands.

On both of my treks as a scout, we re-hydrated our food in individual bowls. Only as a ranger did I start using the "one pot method". You could say that everyone getting the exact same food is a bonding experience.

As a scout on trek, I remember that every dinner we ate as a crew started as the same. There is no precise way on the trail to perfectly split in 1/2 a freeze dried meal. Some nights I would get a little more than my tent partner. That isn't a big deal though. When you rehydrate the food, you can measure the precise amount of water needed to rehydrate. If you put too much powder in one bowl and too little in the other, well the bowl that you put too little in is going to be soup while the one with too much freeze dried powder is going to be dry. That scout with the dry bowl adds warm water and has a perfect meal while the other is stuck with a soup for dinner. The idea is that the crew enjoys together or the crew suffers together.

If your crew gets a one of the GSI Outdoors Compact Scraper, cleanup in the pot is easy and scouts will sometimes argue over who wants to do it because they get more food. If scouts lick clean their bowl there is no cleanup.

Sorry to be blunt: I would love to say that you don't have to take a 8qt cooking pot, but there is no way that you can get around it. Philmont rangers are required to require you to take it. Since you will have to carry it, you might as well get used to it and find the best, most efficient way to do use it… trust me the GSI Outdoors Compact Scraper is the way to go. They're dirt cheap and worth every penny.

There are TONS of inexperienced backpackers who make it to Philmont and YES, Philmont is liable for any problems. They do have a "cookie-cutter" formula they use, but trust me IT WORKS if you follow it. There are some places that you can be tweaked and improved, but it works. It is the same method that has been used for the past 30+ years on the trails.

The idea of unity and teamwork comes from every scout having a responsibility to help the team. There is no way that everybody can cook their own food at the same time. Philmont's philosophy is that the entire crew needs responsibilities to contribute to the benefit of the crew. These duties rotate daily so everyone gets a chance at them.

I sense a lot of hostility towards Philmont. As having experience on both sides of Philmont, trying to get around the system as a camper and teaching and following the system as a Ranger I know that the Philmont system works in group backpacking trips. I know that when I backpack with groups of friends we don't follow Philmont policy (except bear procedure when necessary).

As for trail hygiene and hand sanitizer most advisers I have encountered prefer to wash their hands at the sump which is better than using hand sanitizer. However scouts who generally practice poor hygiene compared to their advisers don’t want to wash their hands. Eating clean dirt is better than eating dirty dirt. You will also run into situations at dry camps where you do not want to use water to wash your hands because you would rather drink it. From my experience using hand sanitizer and wiping your hands (while still wet with hand sanitizer) will usually get most if not all of the dirt off your hands.

Oy, I've seen the team approach defined by "the idea is that the crew enjoys together or the crew suffers together" method being promoted by a percentage of Scouters … so, in this one case – and applying that method – if one has a soupy meal then they ALL should have a soupy meal?
May I suggest that a better promoter of team spirit & a more constructive measure of team cohesiveness: the willingness of team members help one another.
All Scouts within a crew have strengths & weaknesses. Seeing Scouts self initiate the leadership and team building skills within their crew to achieve cohesion using those strengths & weaknesses is both a growing & character building experience for all … and wonderful reward for the adult leaders.

Example of that kind of team spirit (concerning soupy meals and individually re-hydrating) – During training hikes we've had few Scouts that have had unwanted soupy meals, did they suffer alone? no, other Scouts stepped up and with much drier meals and offered to mix their meal with the soupy meals to reduce the amount of water present (mix together, then split again). I've seen this process repeat a few times too, until an acceptable consistency was achieved. This was a lesson-rich situation for building the qualities that Scouting is about.

Point: Re-hydrating in a bowl happens to be an approach that allowed the flexibility and the opportunity for individual Scouts to take self-initiative, work on problem solving skills, and to practice team building at the same time.
It is a very different approach (and outcome) than "the crew enjoys together or the crew suffers together" method.

Main (Team Spirit) Point: This is not about re-hydrating – It is about boy-led team building & cohesiveness; and the character building that is foundational to achieving that. Our job as adults is to promote that as often and as best we can in a safe manner.

BTW (this off the main point of team building): Eliminating meals that are too watery:

There are easy measuring techniques that can be applied here. I won't go into them here to keep this long post from getting longer. But the techniques should be learned & practiced on the training hikes. Remember living the Scout Motto: Be Prepared

Hostility-
We can disagree without being disagreeable. Better to achieve clarity first, before attempting agreement. I hope that as Scouters we can all live up to the Scout Oath & Law

Hey Ranger Jake,

Got it, no freezer bags. No debate needed, as you guyts are the "land manager". That said how about using your connections through Ranger channels and ensure that this message gets out loud and clear to all attending in 2013 and beyond. As I review the latest Philmont Council and Unit Planning Guide (2013 edition) and Guidebook to Adventure, there is no mention of the prohibition on freezer/turkey bags for cooking.

LNT principle #1 is "plan ahead and prepare". If Philmont will let us know, well in advance, I'm sure folks will come prepared not to go the "bag route".

Thanks for your service to our youth and the great scouting program.

v/r

Eagletrek

Thomas –
Unit planning Guide comes out for 2013 in the fall of 2012, so probably missed the printing deadline. I agree though, should have been in the Guidebook to Adventure since they JUST came out, but it is referenced in the Itinerary Guide.

Sarah

From the 2013 Itinerary Guide – page 15
"Turkey Bags
A common food preparation inquiry amongst crews travelling to Philmont relates to the use of oven cooking bags, or as they are sometimes called, “turkey bags”. Though their use may be a common practice on camping or backpacking trips on the local level, Philmont asks that units DO NOT use this cooking method while on an expedition at Philmont. Rangers will teach the proper cooking and cleaning procedures to the crew at the beginning of the trek using pots, camp suds, hot water, and Philmont sumps. This is an important skill for crew members to learn, and helps reinforce the Patrol Method on the trail by rotating this valuable position on the crew duty roster to all members of the crew. Other concerns with the “turkey bags” are the environmental impact and the impact to bear and wildlife procedures. 22,000 participants in a summer would create over 50,000 bags that take up scarce refuse space in the backcountry and then have to be hauled to a landfill. Also, with 50,000 bags worth of food residue, the potential for increased odors that are carried in backpacks, hung in bear bags, or left in refuse containers, will certainly create an impact to Philmont bear and wildlife procedures. Your cooperation in this effort will help support Philmont’s multiple sustainability initiatives and will make a positive and lasting impact on the environment."

Re: "Rangers will teach the proper cooking and cleaning procedures …"

Hmm, this is just one illustrative sentence that reflects a value-belief which is at the heart of the issue here … it is simply unaware of (or doesn't accept)that there are differences between "proper" and "Philmont"

Also there is no recognition that the Philmont version of the patrol method of cooking and cleaning does not fully embrace Philmont's own Wilderness Pledge commitment to converse water. There recognition that it wastes stove fuel and increases fossil fuel emissions from unnecessary boiling of water for clean up. So, there is no recognition that it is less sustainable.

The Reframing to Tradition:

I get that there is a element of tradition in play here … and that tradition is important to the culture of Scouting. That can certainly be acknowledged and act as a basis for going forward.

But please, let's drop creating specious rationalizations that the cooking alternatives represented in this thread aren't as effective in promoting the Patrol Method. (As Don outlines in his 12/26/2012 post on this thread)

Permit me to add one more example from the previous post's Itinerary Guide quote:
"the potential [turkey bag method] for increased odors that are carried in backpacks, hung in bear bags, or left in refuse containers, will certainly create an impact to Philmont bear and wildlife procedures."

Oy what a rationalization. In reality, the traditional Philmont methods do not minimize that – as food solids left over from the dinner cleaning procedure (from the frisbee strainer and a bit from the sump strainer) get packed out in plastic waste bags (our ranger encouraged the use of zip-locs for moisture control … just like waste containment for the alternative methods in this thread). And of course, besides dinner's rehydration, there are plenty of other food residue trash from lunch spreads, meat containers, etc (that have nothing to do with a rehydrating method) that also go into waste bags. BTW, Campsuds is aromatic as well, and that makes the things it washes aromatic too. (Which would one think is more of a bear attractor; a pot that's had food cooked in it and washed with aromatic soap? or a pot that has only been used for boiled water?)
Anyway … in short – the food residue & trash from the traditional Philmont method are NOT the most minimized and are also naturally carried in backpacks, hung in bear bags, or left in refuse containers at staff camps …

Rather than relying on such specious rationalizations, maybe focusing on it as a tradition approach is easier way to advocate the Philmont Method.

LNT Approach –
I can also embrace the LNT angle which is thankfully (ironically?) counter to the older traditions of back country woodcraft (among other things). And while the Philmont Method ignores the issue of water conservation, fuel & emissions waste. I'm just hoping to see at PSR this summer,t LNT practices that are better & wider spread than what I saw in 2011 … because there are lots of low hanging fruit that haven't been picked yet. Philmont certainly has the potential to be a shining example of the LNT approach. I'm accepting as a matter of faith that these steps are a part of an effort to pursue that goal.

Call it what it is. Total BS.

How many crews use turkey bags? 1/2? 1/3? 1/4, or less?

Probably less.

But lets be kind and say 1/3

Might be 7000 turkey bags per summer

Assuming a 8 weeks of treks = 875 per week.

want to know how much volume the bags actually takes up?

A couple cubic feet, tops. Less than 1/2 of a trash can, per week.

The food residue in the bags would be way more of a problem, than the bags themselves.

And that food comes out anyway in the yum yum ziplocks.

People have used turkey bags and other preferred ways of doing things for years at Philmont without issues.

But apparently someone new got a hard-on to try to make everyone do things their way.

When we have asked, we have not been told that we couldnt do anything that we wanted. We were told they would "prefer" if we did it X way.
That is also the language used here.

actual turkey bag weighs .5 oz
10 bags weigh 6 oz,= 0.375 lb

How much trash if 1/3 used them? 272lbs
How much trash if everyone used them 816 lbs

816 lbs is all the recyclable trash they are actually saving. Period.

22000 participants cant generate 50000 bags unless they use two for each meal, or if they have 5 man crews. Neither happens.

22000 * 11/7 =34571 = the max # of bags that could be possibly generated.
=1080 lb All recyclable too.
Seems they cant even do math, or possibly just like throwing out ridiculous exxagerations. More that likely the average crew size is 10, and you end up with 800 lbs of trash, max based on 24000 turkey bags, not 50,000

In actuality, you will use one yum-yum bag every 2 days since you will dispose of at staffed camps, so thats 0.6 oz (double bagged) vs. 1.0 oz for one turkey bag each day.
so in reality, the trash savings is even less, probably half. 400lbs total if everyone used turkey bags, or more likely, 150 lbs.

The rest of the trash in their food packaging for a crew, eclipses that easily by probably a factor of 50. They are working on the wrong target, as usual.

Sarah,

Thanks for pointing out Philmont's new policy. It was just my luck that the 2013 Itinerary Guide was posted on-line just after I made my post. Glad to see that they included it however it would have been nice if it had been done earlier. Seems to be a little late in the process especially for those of us who start training early.

In keeping with Philmont's return to "tradition" I'm contemplating toting my Plumb three quarter axe with me during our 2014 trek. Just for looks you know!!!

@ Thomas: LOL – going retro! Let us know how that goes.
I'm old enough to remember when I was a Scout, Woodcraft was a natural part of "Scout Craft" … not exactly a LNT approach.

Yeah, point made. Some traditions are best left in the past *smile*