Bic Mini vs. Bic Mini electric

[Stuart R]

These piezo lighters are very common in Europe. I find them much easier to use than the old flint type (due to huge fingers/thumbs). I have used them at 2000m (6000') with no problems at all.

[Erik Basil]

That's cool! I didn't know of the piezo mini-bics, so there's something to look for after my current batch expire. The ease of firing is nice to see, having fumbled with cold fingers in the past.

[Kevin Babione]

I just found these at my grocery store ($2.79 for the 2-pack):

They're obviously labeled "Thumb Friendly" – but are they what you're calling "Electric?"

I haven't put one on my scale yet, but they look to be the same as in the OP's photo.

[Hikin’ Jim]

Suprised hiking Jim has not tested one yet.

Yeah, where is that guy when you need him? Sheesh.

Looks like a nice lighter, but piezo electric lighters do have problems with altitude. I've had them fail as low as 7500' in winter and work as high as 10,000' in summer. I consider a piezo ignition on a lighter pretty much hit or miss above 7000', and the higher you go, the more likely it won't work. Now, if you're hiking the AT, maybe that's no big deal, but if you're hiking the CDT, then it's something to consider.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Anonymous]

"I think it has to be piezo. Does it keep working at altitude? I can't remember at what altitude they begin having problems or if I read wrong"

I share this concern. I've had terrible luck with piezos from ~10,000' on up.

[Bob Gross]

Idea.

If the piezo ignitor won't work reliably in low air pressure, then we produce a teeny tiny Gamow bag for it, made out of cuben fiber, of course.

It might be more trouble than it's worth.

–B.G.–

[Hikin’ Jim]

I've had terrible luck with piezos from ~10,000' on up.

If you've been able to get your piezo lighters to work consistently up to 10K, then consider yourself lucky. I've had them fail (just) below 8000' in winter. I descended later in the day, and the lighter worked as though nothing had ever happened.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Tim Zen]

HJ. And this was an emergency too.

Good to 7000 feet? A Michigan friendly lighter.
still looking. Going to hit the head shops if all else fails.

[Erik Basil]

What's the theory(ies) on piezo crystals at elevation? We still strike them, it still deforms and it still bursts electrons, right? Is it temp or altitude? Calibration of the air-gap? Odd.

[Hikin’ Jim]

Erik,

I believe it has to do with the density of the air. Something about the air being insufficient to transmit enough spark to cause ignition.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Greg Mihalik]

According to Brunton –

Q:Why won't my piezo ignition start my stove at higher altitudes?

A:As you get higher in elevation, the air becomes thinner and less oxygen is available in the air. When there isn't as much oxygen in the air to help ignite a flame, a wider electrical arc is necessary to get an ignition. We do not recommend bending the piezo igniter to achieve this. At a certain point it is reccomended to use a match to light your stove.

So the question is, do piezo lighters suffer the same operational issues?

Edit: added the piezo qualifier

[Bob Gross]

I've camped as high as 19,500 feet, and an ordinary Bic lighter had no problem working there.

–B.G.–

[Hikin’ Jim]

As you get higher in elevation, the air becomes thinner and less oxygen is available in the air. When there isn't as much oxygen in the air to help ignite a flame, a wider electrical arc is necessary to get an ignition. We do not recommend bending the piezo igniter to achieve this. At a certain point it is reccomended to use a match to light your stove.

Now, that's interesting. It suggests that there's a way to mod a piezo ignition to make it work at altitude. That would be handy for Sierra trips. Hmm.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[steven franchuk]

"What's the theory(ies) on piezo crystals at elevation? We still strike them, it still deforms and it still bursts electrons, right? Is it temp or altitude? Calibration of the air-gap? Odd."

I just put a piezo in the freezer and after it was ice cold it still could make a spark 1/4" long. However as it warmed up condensation started to develope. At that point most of the time it worked normally. However occationally it would spark not from the tip of the wire but it would from the base of the ceramic insulator on the wire to the metal frame.

When you go up in altitude you move to colder conditions and depending on the weather some condensation may develop on the piezo. Water is conductive. Water could cause the energy from the piezo to not reach the burner, where it is needed to light the fuel.

It wouldn't take much water to cause a failure. You might not even be able to see it. It could be in a hidden location or a thin film that you cannot see.

I don't see how air pressure alone can cause the problem. My oldest stove is the only one I have that had a piezo and it would work fine at 10,000ft. If air pressure was an issue the piezo would always fail at altitude. However based on what I have read it sometimes happens and sometimes does not. Intermittent operation is more consistent with condensation instead of air pressure.

[Bob Gross]

As you go to higher elevation, the air gets very dry, not moist. So, forget about the conductive problem.

That is why high altitude climbers routinely get a hoarse, high altitude cough. The air is incredibly dry.

–B.G.–

[K C]

Bob, I can't dispute the piezo at 19k. I often backpack in rain and snow. Try running a classic Bic and a piezo Bic under water then throw them in the freezer or fridge for an hour and then take them out and try to start a fire, this is what I tried and was very surprised.

[Bob Gross]

I have no plans for returning to 19,500 feet, nor do I have any plans for testing a Bic as you suggest. When up that high, the lighter lives almost permanently in my pants pocket so that it stays moderately warm and dry.

–B.G.–

[Stuart R]

What's the theory(ies) on piezo crystals at elevation? We still strike them, it still deforms and it still bursts electrons, right? Is it temp or altitude? Calibration of the air-gap? Odd.

It's not the piezo, it's all down to Minimum Ignition Energy (MIE) of the gas. This is the amount of energy required to raise the air/fuel mixture to a sufficient temperature for the gas to burn. The MIE varies with temperature, pressure and air/fuel mixture. The graph below shows how the MIE for Butane varies with air/fuel mixture. The lowest MIE is 0.26mJ (at sea level and 25C) and rises sharply as the mixture deviates from the optimum.

When you gain altitude, both the temperature and atmospheric pressure drop. Pressure at 10,000' is approx 70% of sea level pressure. Reducing temperature and pressure both increase the MIE – the relation with pressure is approximately inverse square law. Not only that, but as the jet in the stove and lighter is fixed, the air/fuel mixture will be richer, so the MIE will move up the right-hand side of the graph above.

The spark from a piezo has a fixed amount of energy, so there will be an altitude above which the spark energy is insufficient to ignite the gas from either the lighter or stove. A 'flint' lighter will also have an altitude limit, but I'm guessing that the energy in a hot chip of ferrocerium is greater than that of a piezo spark.

Reference: http://www2.galcit.caltech.edu/EDL/public/flammability/USBM-680.pdf

[Greg Mihalik]

Thank You Rob!

An acronym, a graph, and an explanation.
It doesn't get much better.

[Tim Zen]

Stuart. Thanks for the facts.

15.55 grams without the labels.

[David Affleck]

Just from my experience as a long time cigar smoker, who frequently camps/recreates above 10,000', I've never had any luck at all with piezo ignited butane lighters at 10K. From el-cheapos that come free with boxes of cigars, to a $125 DuPont, none of them have ever worked worth a darn. Most, haven't worked AT ALL, at 10K.

– Dave

[David Olsen]

Could one build a high altitude lighter with a different gas?

Mapp gas or acetylene, propane? (I don't know the properties of each).

Do carbide lights work at altitude?

[Colin Krusor]

I'm wondering about a larger piezo. If the spark gap were the same, but the striker and crystal were larger, the spark should be more energetic.

Maybe, in the future, electrically ignited lighters will use tiny supercapacitors to produce a spark, and the capacitors will be charged by a combination of a little thin-film solar panel, a Seebeck thermocouple, and a tiny pendulum dynamo like those in some watches.

For now, it seems to me that flint lighters, kept dry in a bag, are a good solution to the altitude problem.

[Hikin’ Jim]

Thank You Rob!

Here, here.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

[Kevin Sweere]

Wrt number of lights, from http://www.mybiclighter.com/en/products/classics/

Maxi Electronic   ~1800 lights

Maxi Flint ~3000

Mini Electronic  ~1050

Mini flint ~1450

 

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