Cottage Stagnation and Recent Gems

[dan mchale]

Thanks David. I'm going back to work now.

[David Ure]

"Well, I don't know how long I can sit in for him."

That is pretty awesome, actually.

; )

Have a good evening.

[Richard Scruggs]

Dan, re: "Hey Richard, that must be Hannegan Pass? It's been a while since I've been there too!

Yep. The campsite is up on the ridge rising north from Hannegan Pass, just below Hannegan Peak. Haven't been back to North Cascade NP in years, but it was always great to visit — especially Fall with hardly anyone else there.

And Dan, re: "I think I'm going to have to start making tents to bring back those tunnel entrances. I've tried to get a couple companies to make them to no avail."

Those tunnel entrances are so old it'd be like a renovation innovation! I liked the snow flaps on the NF Mountain tent, too. And they worked great with rocks on hard ground in Big Bend National Park!

Some of that gear in the "old days" not only did the job well but sure held up, and some of it could take a lot of hard use without complaint.

Seems to me that old-time durability, even at the expense of some weight, is one of the qualities Ryan yearns for as "innovation" in current gear.

Marrying lightweight with durability, as his thread on strengths/weaknesses of cuben fiber perhaps aims to explore.

I'm all for innovation that makes great gear last forever!

I just have a hard time bringing myself to get rid of it.

[dan mchale]

In 1985 I was designing a tent, but that all went away because the ID and Bibler freestanding tents came along and I sold the ID MK tents in my new shop. I was going to build a free standing tent and did not even know Dan Cauthorn was building the freestaning design locally as well. I'm not a guyline guy since I always tended to walk till I dropped, even if it meant ending up in a lousy spot!

Richard, I won't say which company I wanted to use the tunnel as an option. Haha!

I went to bed last night wondering if David meant what he said or was pulling my leg – the thought crossed my mind and at those times it's easy to see how almost anything can be looked at positively or negatively and the outcome of course is different. I'm glad the activity for the day ended there anyway! You don't have to post David!

I would like people to know I love this site and love reading the threads and articles when I have time. At times it's love/hate but here I am. One of my favorite themes is the waterproof breathable fabric issue in regards to vapor transport. Since I use ID tents I am particularly fascinated by the issue. The reason the site is so good of course is because of the way Ryan gets all these people together to talk. It's endless endless info, and I don't really care if things get repeated time and again since it's in the repetition that new ways of seeing things can come out. Viva BPL!

[t.darrah]

NW Alpine, a small Oregon company,is working on a sub 5 oz WPB cuben jacket that looks very nice. I feel this is a great example of non stagnation.

Here is a link showing the jacket;

http://nwalpine.com/archives/772

[Dan Quixote]

Thom, haven't you done some small bit of innovating yourself, what with your tenkara accessories and trail running gear, the designs you've farmed out for others to produce, and some of the bits currently on your area 51 page?

I'm still wondering what happened to the Bandoleer pack you designed, and if it'll ever be available.

[Q Smith]

i am a noobie. thanks to UL folks the weight carried has gone from 50ish to 15ish. That is a lot. Going from 15ish to 12ish isn't that much of an advance too me.

it may be time to go all "iphone-like" and bring together integrated design, quality, function, and look. Can someone create a shelter that is also your pack; or a jacket that is also a pack; or even a thing that can be a shelter, pack, jacket, or quilt?

what i have not been able to find that might be considered cottage opportunities:
> leading edge use of nano materials to lighten, strengthen, water proof, etc.
> blending of gear and wearable electronics (battery chargers for example)
> upgrades in navigation assistance:
— maps with better detail
— better electronic maps

---

the whole gps device world is hard for me to understand what i'm getting

---

so are gps device maps (and wehre are the trails)
— light-weight, flexible solar chargers could be useful…
— better trail markers (solar powered beacons maybe) could have value
— better trail descriptions. i find it very hard to plan trips:
—- finding loops versus out-and-back routes
—- finding water and water planning
—- finding the right amount of miles

some thoughts

[Everett Vinzant]

Okay, this one is…. out there.

So congress is approving drones in airspace the commercial aircraft uses. We all get together and build drones for the forrest service. We put them up and use the drones to provide information on routes (out and back v.s. loops), usage (sometimes I'm looking for a quiet trail), weather, and emergency use (commo relay for amateur radio operators). We make them solar powered/electric. The entire system is open source to encourage design competition, and standardized so that communications can occur between systems. The systems can even "land" and provide emergency power (through an onboard USB port). They can use current systems to identify and transmit location.

It's not a new jacket, or a new sleeping bag, but the idea does solve some problems mentioned here. We could build the "skin" out of fabric (I'm looking at you Mr. McHale :) ), and try to build the rest out of off the shelf parts.

So, I've given away an idea I could potentially patent. That means I have skin in the game (I've made an investment). Anyone else up to the challenge?

[Nick Gatel]

what i have not been able to find that might be considered cottage opportunities:
> leading edge use of nano materials to lighten, strengthen, water proof, etc.
> blending of gear and wearable electronics (battery chargers for example)
> upgrades in navigation assistance:
— maps with better detail
— better electronic maps

---

the whole gps device world is hard for me to understand what i'm getting

---

so are gps device maps (and wehre are the trails)
— light-weight, flexible solar chargers could be useful…
— better trail markers (solar powered beacons maybe) could have value
— better trail descriptions. i find it very hard to plan trips:
—- finding loops versus out-and-back routes
—- finding water and water planning
—- finding the right amount of miles

---

New materials can always be a good thing.

Electronics? I leave them at home, except for a camera on occasions.

Trail markers a an eyesore in the wilderness.

Trail guides are worse than trail markers. Just go look at the free USGS Topo maps and you can create all the loops you want, find potential waters sources, and plan the right amount of miles.

:)

[Q Smith]

disney could make the trail markers look like part of nature – if they are electronic they could be completely hidden – you don't have to take electronics, but soon they will be no more pervasive than a pair of glasses, a compass, or a shoe lace…

q

[John S.]

This article used to be open to non members.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

I hear Ryan Jordan and Miguel D' Arboleda when they talk about durable, simple and yet innovative gear.

MY SIMPLE,RELIABLE STUFF:

MY BACKPACK> an older REI Cruise UL 60. True, NOT a cottage industry but REI has to build packs that hold up to teenagers and other careless hikers' misuse, thus my pack has held up well over the years. All I've done is change the belt buckle/webbing configuration to make it adjustable by pulling the belt ends to the center to make adjustment easier, as on newer waistbelts.

MY TENT> a TT Moment, ain't the lightest at 28 oz. but it has so many great design features and great build quality that I'm sticking with it for the forseeable future.

MY SLEEP SYSTEM>
BAG> WM Megalite (overfilled to be good to 20 F.) A fantastic bag. My only regret?
I wish it has Dri-Down technology.
MATTRESS> Thermarest ProLite reg. Still my fav. There's not a better lightweight
self-inflator on the market. Neo-Airs? Not fer me Bub, but STILL innovative.

STOVE(S)> Trail Designs ti sidewinder W/ wood-burning Inferno option
Brunton Crux canister stove which has a nice w-i-d-e flame ring

All in all I've found what works over the long haul yet is innovative as well. Like Miguel said, if gear LASTS you stick with it. Mostly cottage industry stuff except my pack & canister stove.

I agree with Ryan about QUALITY. My choices have that quality and even further they have design and manufacturing DETAILS.
As Goethe said, God made the universe with details, and so must good cottage manufacturers make their gear – QUALITY being the main detail.

[Thomas Trebisky]

Well, I have been busy backpacking rather than honing my gear and missed this great article when it first came out. Not that the article is all that great, but it is a key player in the ULB community throwing a rock at a pack of dogs (or something like that, pardon the obnoxious metaphor), which is always a fun thing to watch and even participate in.

Several thoughts came to mind reading the article:

1) I buy gear from cottage industries in part because I like supporting mom and pop businesses. I would prefer to do that even if the big companies began producing polished versions of what the cottage folks were making. Not that I am willing to buy grossly substandard items mind you, but I like being able to look at a pack and see that it was sewn by a living human.

2) Not every cottage maker wants to transition into becoming the next North Face or Dana Designs or big company. I doubt that I would want to if I were a cottage maker and I would not label that transition as success (unless I was a Harvard Business School minded person). Success is being happy and able to get outdoors a lot — in my book.

3) While I am eager to see new gear innovations, I am really quite happy that I have a good ultralight setup and am out doing what I want to do with it (witness this absurd post over a year after this all came out). I don't want to be spending money and time and brain cells fussing over the latest gear. In fact at some level, I don't even want to know about Katabatic quilts because it will make me dissatisfied with the quilt I already have. :-)

My greatest concern has been with BPL itself – I think it has definitely degenerated from a information saturated gearhead site to a somewhat dumbed down gear hawking and reviewing site. Just a few more steps and it will be something like "Runners World", owned and seemingly run by the industry that buys its ads.

[D LARSON]

Computers used to be built in garages by a cottage industry. These days computers are so complex, intricate and miniaturized that building one in a garage isn't even an option. That's what happens when technological advances in production move beyond what is possible by home-grown hobbyist and the cottage industry.

Certainly the gap is narrowing between the cottage industry and the large manufacturers but that doesn't mean the little folks are too lazy to innovate. It means that the tech required to really move things forward is sliding out of reach for the little guy.

For example, 3D printing makes it possible to prototype things that would be impossible to mill or mold. But printing at a production level requires equipment that is cost prohibitive for all but the deepest pockets.

This "stagnation" is the natural evolution of things.

Snowboarding used to be a cottage industry too and now look at it. You can't just throw some bindings on a plank of wood. The performance modeling and the material physics involved in creating a new board require talented professionals form a variety of fields for even a marginal improvement.

My point is that moving forward requires R&D. At first advances can be made by a regular guy with an idea but eventually it requires a professional team with a big wallet.

[Roger Caffin]

Personal opinions, not any form of BPL statement.

> BPL itself – I think it has definitely degenerated from a information saturated
> gearhead site to a somewhat dumbed down gear hawking and reviewing site. Just a
> few more steps and it will be something like "Runners World", owned and seemingly
> run by the industry that buys its ads.
Could be difficult to get it 'run by the industry that buys its ads' – BPL does not run ads like Running World, and probably never will.
Gear hawking … the For Sale department seems hugely popular?
Gear reviewing … isn't that 'information'?

> moving forward requires R&D. At first advances can be made by a regular guy with
> an idea but eventually it requires a professional team with a big wallet.
This bit is TRUE. Very true. OK, maybe sad as well, but.

Cheers

[Jan S]

While I think it's great that there is a new stove system I must disappoint a bit: It's not exactly new. Apparently these guys http://www.kellykettle.com/ have been making a quite similar design for about 120 years (http://www.kellykettle.com/history-of-the-kelly-kettle.html).

I also guess innovation gets hard at some point if you aim to make products that are simple and durable. There is always demand for quality workmanship, customisation and good company-buyer relations though. So I can live quite happily in a world without groundbreaking new stuff each year.

[BlackHatGuy]

"While I think it's great that there is a new stove system I must disappoint a bit: It's not exactly new."

You're not disappointing a bit at all. Devon was quite up front about where his idea came from, you're not telling us some secret we didn't already know.

[Link .]

If you were to do a search on the site you would know the history,but I'll make it easy for you here is the original 6 year old thread that started it all.

[Jan S]

Note to self: Don't try to write something humorous in a foreign language at 4 in the morning.

Sorry if that came out all wrong. I did not want to say that Devin somehow stole the design or did anything wrong. Quite the opposite actually, they do look terrific.

But I do think there is a bit of irony that a concept that is at least 120 years old gets featured at the end of an article that mainly talks about a lack of innovation. But then again I have long suspected that my understanding of innovation is somehow flawed.

Right. I said enough given that the article is 2 years old.

[dan mchale]

"This article used to be open to non members."

What I like about having become a life member is that it makes it look like ALL of my old posts were made as a life member. Nice perk.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

1. Seems as though once a cottage industry blossoms it needs to MAKE MOMEY for a while before offering "new and innovative gear". 2. Often consumers themselves drive new cottage industry products (or not, as in the case of Tarptent's 2 person Moment, a question nobody asked, like the Edsel.) Are we asking the right questions regarding "gear needs"? What do we want that is NOT offered? BTW, In Tarptent's defense their products are an example of both evolution and innovation as well as a company that has grown beyond the cottage industry stage. 3. Currently materials have evolved to a fairly high state in fabrics, insulating fills, metal alloys and carbon fiber materials. So it looks like we need to find new ways to use these materials. 4. Outdoor clothing also has advanced in materials and design at a fairly "evolutionary" manner, sometimes driven by cottage industry innovation. 5. Electronics seem to outpace others gear due to the tremendous bank of evolving R&D in the US and worldwide. I think we will have no complaints about electronics innovation like SPOT Gen 3, Garmin GPS and Casio multi-role watches, for example. But those companies aren't exactly "cottage industries" once they take off. Just think of the advances in the last 20 years headlamps, batteries, GPS, satellite phones, multi-role wrist watches, charging devices, etc. So when we think of the typical backpacking "Cottage Industry" we think of shelters, packs, some outerwear, and stoves. Those are the main categories we're looking to for more innovation. SURELY there are backpackers out there who will be the new innovators, as they have been in the past. So the hope is mainly in looking to them and the existing cottage industries. Let's be a bit more patient as well as offering our own ideas to existing small companies.

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