Snow melting techniques

[Travis Leanna]

I've got a GSI teapot that I'll probably use. The little spout will make pouring very nice.

[Hikin’ Jim]

Bob Gross wrote: > "little petrified artifacts"

You know the raisins in the rice pudding? They weren't raisins.

lol. I am never going hiking with you. lol.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

[Hikin’ Jim]

David Goodyear wrote: > Hi Jim,

The only mods I made was to replace the heat shield with a hobo and the stove board with a cookie sheet. I can pull the stove out the top with the fuel bottle attached and burn wood. (this protects the o-ring at -F temps)

enjoy,

Dave

P.S. I should mention that in the winter I pull a sled. This way I can leave the stove set up and ready to go. The hobo is riveted to the cookie sheet and provides protection for the stove in the sled.

David,

How do you pull the fuel bottle out? Sounds like a good set up. Do you have a photo of the set up in use with the stove (or with wood). Does the bakepacker hold up OK with wood?

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

[Hikin’ Jim]

I've got a GSI teapot that I'll probably use. The little spout will make pouring very nice.

+1 on a teapot to prevent spills. Way better than a pot + pot gripper.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

[David Goodyear]

Hi JIm,

Sorry if I am hijacking this thread, but It sort of relates.

When in hobo mode, I remove the cozy and MSR heat exchanger. (fuel conservation is not a concern) I think they would get wrecked if left on.

Dave

Pics:

Set-up

without cozy

take off pot

Pull out stove with stove board

Insert stakes and wood (set it atop 2 logs on snow ) – fire it up

[Eric Blumensaadt]

I use exactly the setup Hikin' Jim uses. Well, minus the MSR heat exchanger. Too heavy.

>MSR Dragonfly stove
>1.5 L. pot (& lid)
>MSR foil windscreen
>Outback Pantry fiberglass oven hood

This definitely saves fuel in a fuel-thirsty job.

But my CC Sidewinder TriTi Inferno wood stove works well too. (And the fuel is "light".)

[Hikin’ Jim]

Hi, Dave,

Ah. OK, now I get it. You're using a different windscreen, one where you can extract the "guts" out without disassembling everything. Looks pretty beefy. :)

Heck of a set up. You're smart to put it on a pulk/sled. Looks like a lot to carry on one's back!

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

[David Goodyear]

Thanks Jim,

We pull sleds in the winter as we have no elevation to speak of. If I had to carry a stove set-up on my back I would downsize to a 2L pot and use the set-up from the straightshutter link. I might also throw in a titanium hex folding wood stove (vargo?). The heat exchanger only pays weight dividends if your trip is longer than 3 days. We consider weight and bombproof function (with mitts on when possible)when designing or purchasing gear for our sled trips. Of course – many people think we are a little "tetched in the head" to hike in the winter like we do.

Enjoy,

Dave

[Travis Leanna]

Thanks to everyone for posting some good info!

Although, the way the weather has been here, I don't know if I'll see any snow this year! We're supposed to hit the low 40s this week.

[Hikin’ Jim]

Of course – many people think we are a little "tetched in the head" to hike in the winter like we do.

lol. Not at all. Winter is a beautiful season to hike in. With the proper gear and with proper respect for the weather forecast, there's good times to be had.

I love back country ski touring. Just the greatest stuff.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Well, just outside 'Vegas we have over 5 ft. of snow in the Spring Mountains above 7,000 ft. TIME TO WINTER CAMP!!!!

Ooooweee BABY!

[Brian Barnes]

So for a larger group, of say 8, would you still use a 4 quart pot and just keep adding snow to the pot or would you upsize to a 6 qt pot? FWIW I believe we'll be using a pulk.

[Bob Gross]

I admit to using a 6 quart pot on one snow camping trip. However, I found it to be a little too large to be practical. For a group of 8, I think a 4 quart pot is more practical.

We did a 16-person snow camping trip one time, but we divided up into four cooking teams of 4. Each team had one MSR white gas stove, one 4 quart pot, and one 2 quart pot. The 4 quart pot was for melting, and the 2 quart was for cooking food.

–B.G.–

[David Thomas]

@Chad, point 3: It was said of my paternal grandmother that "she could burn water" hence my grandfather did all the cooking. So apparently, one can do that?

I'll echo the idea that if you're melting snow, you need to have some sort of HX whether an after-the-fact one like the MSR or some sort of flux-ring-capacitor built into the pot.

But I haven't seen the most important point: Don't melt yellow snow.

[David Thomas]

At some point, you'd come out ahead harvesting actual liquid water. You need to get through the ice* and then get the liquid water out of the stream/lake/pond. In my neighborhood or Northern WI/MI, 3-4 feet of ice might be prohibitive. But the mild California Sierra Nevada Mountains, you've got typically 6 to 18" of ice to deal with.

*I've used an axe in midwinter and I don't recommend it.

So you need a a drill bit of sorts and a classic brace and bit does a good job (I've done this). 1/2" is fine. Then you need a pump. The cheapest, lightest pump is an inertial pump which is tubing with a check valve on one end. Sold in auto parts stores and J.C. Whitney for siphoning gasoline. $8 or so.

[Hikin’ Jim]

David,

If 18"/45cm of ice represents a "mild" winter to you, you'll have to pardon me if I don't visit you this winter. Yipes!

Drilling through 18" of ice doesn't sound like much fun. How long does something like that take? I almost wonder if the weight of the fuel to just melt snow would be lighter than carrying a drill and a pump, but I guess that depends on how long you'll be out for.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

[Alpo Kuusisto]

Tips here on a Finnish forum:
http://www.vaellusnet.com/turinat/viewtopic.php?t=6375&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
You can use the Google translator for some fun.

If not intersted in the translation challenge, here's the first post in easier english:

Now as the lakes are getting thicker ice cover, reaching the water gets ever more challenging. There's no need to carry an auger. Small axe is sufficient, if you carry a suitable length of a threaded steel bar.

First chop a small bowl on the ice, then use the axe to drive the bar through the bottom of the bowl. Soon you'll have a spring filling the bowl.

later in the discussion:

– 8mm diameter bar is working
– use nut, leash etc or you'll need a new bar for every lake
– if the bar gets stuck, use the threads: twist

editor's notes:

You are supposed to carry an axe anyway, so the steel bar is the only extra weight.

[David Goodyear]

Pounding a hole/bowl through the ice is a great solution if you plan your route to include these. If we are near a lake and the ice is shallow, we just use our bowie knives and chop a hole big enough for a dipping cup. Not sure if the thickness of the ice would be a factor in the threaded rod idea, plus how fast would the small drill hole close up in frigid temps. You will still need a method of disinfection or to boil the water. Not sure of the weight savings if you carry a steel rod and ice axe, plus the extra limitations on the route and energy needed for another camp chore. Even though I hike heavy as compared to many on this site, every gram must justify itself for me to carry it. The fact that it gets dark a 5pm and you need to set-up your shelter, gather wood, water, eat, bullshist with your friends and sleep – I'm not sure I want another chore.

Of course, it is all what you are use to, where I hike – we don't know what an ice axe looks like – now a hatchet – yes.

Enjoy,

Dave

[Chad Miller]

Yeah, as someone who does a decent amount of winter backpack I'd rather carry the extra 5-6 oz. of fuel a day to melt water rather than 8-12 pounds of ax and prybar to hack through the ice. ;)

[James White]

If you're camping on snowpack for just one night, the pee process for men is much shorter:

1. unzip everything so that you're mostly exposed
2. roll over so you're hardware is above the snow, not the groundsheet
3. pee
4. reverse steps 2 & 1
5. go back to sleep

It helps to remember that you peed when you wake up, that way you can avoid stepping/kneeling in the yellow snow.

[Chad Miller]

Way simpler solution to peeing James.

1. Use pee bottle (.5 ounce weight).

Done.

[Richard Fischel]

*1. unzip everything so that you're mostly exposed* – really?

i guess it depends how cold it is, but in the middle of the night i am reluctant to unzip everything and lose all that hard earned heat that i've trapped in my sleeping bag. i'll stick with a soft nalgene pee-bottle.

[David Thomas]

Jim: I do it mostly to collect surface water samples for environmental monitoring so there isn't an option – the point is to get the stream water.

But a brace, bit and extension weigh a finite amount. 3 pounds maybe. There could be some 1 pound option, woodworking tools are way overbuilt for this application. At some point, trip length x group size would cause fuel consumption to exceed that. Obviously the cross-over for a 3-pound device is at 3 liters of fuel saved, so maybe at 30 people-days?

Does it take long? Not at all. A good bit goes through wood easily. Brace and 1" bit through a foot of ice? 30 seconds. Ice isn't near as strong as wood when near 30F (and there is liquid water underneath). -20F ice is MUCH stronger and tougher, but the bottom of my fun meter is -15F and with our young kids, I aim for temps >0F for camping trips. Ice fishermen bring a hand auguer with a 6" or 8" diameter bit (4 pounds?, 5-10 minutes) or power a power auger (20-30 pounds, one minute or less). You could lower your water bottles and pots directly through that hole. And catch some dinner!

A forum for people who care about this much more I do: (I catch more fish in the summer with a 5' diameter net than any icefisherman ever does through a 6" hole).

http://fishfinance.hubpages.com/hub/Best-Ice-Augers

[Chad Miller]

David I have to ask: Have you ever been winter backpacking and used your 'setup' for getting water?

If so what distances where you hiking each day, and how long where you out for?

[David Olsen]

Ice axes work of course to get at frozen over lakes. Something you might need to carry
anyway.

If you also have a long ice screw and a platy hose you can get to water through thin ice
for a quick, if unfiltered, drink.

Perhaps some more brainstorming?

[Author]

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