Single or some double wall tents, any difference?

[MARTINE LAVOCAT]

Hi!
I am looking for an ultralight shelter and I cannot make up my mind.
We can get very interesting points of view on BPL site, that is great!
I have read a couple of reviews and my question is:
Is there a real difference between tarptents such as Sublite sil and so-called double wall tents such as Big Agnes Fly Creek or Lightheart cuben?
The inner tent is in mesh, so it is the same?

I mean, the comfort in both single and double wall is that in windy condition you feel the wind while sleeping ?
What are your experiences about that?

Thank for your advice all!

Myrtille (from France!)

[. .]

bonjour et bienvenue!

You bring up some good points, but there are a few notable differences that distinguish double wall tents from tarptents and the like that can be observed:

– double wall tents with solid fabric inner walls are warmer and cut down on drafts significantly, additionally reducing convective heat loss. The BA Fly Creek has a combo of fabric and mesh, which blocks wind down low for while sleeping well under many circumstances.

– if your tent develops condensation on the underside of the fly, there is an additional barrier between you and the moisture in the inner, be it mesh or fabric, although fabric is more effective.

– of course with an all mesh inner, it can be a very comfortable place on warm clear nights and offer great views when pitched sans fly.

– almost any tent can be pitched fly first with the proper technique and accessories, so this should not be an issue for most.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

The main difference is that a double wall tent will protect you from contacting the condensation that is inevitable in some situations. If you feel comfortable using techniques to minimize condensation and comfortable living with a certain amount of condensation then a single wall is the way to go. If you're not sure if you're okay living with condensation then you may want to start with a double wall.

[Sam Farrington]

Agree totally with Dan's comment, and done so succinctly!

[Dale Wambaugh]

The typical inner tent for a double wall has a bathtub floor, protecting against spray and splash, leaving the outer wall to handle the condensation and rain. With a good design there are some ventilation features to reduce condensation. The outer wall is separated from you and brushing the wet surface with your body or sleeping bag.

A good single wall design has lots of protected ventilation, just like a rain shell, and for the same reasons. I've learned to take full advantage of those features, making sure they are staked and guyed out to the follow the designer's intentions.

In either case, that outer shell is catching your warm respired moisture, plus any dew point effects, with a cold shell hung out in the moist air and rising ground moisture.

[MARTINE LAVOCAT]

Good evening!

Thanks a lot for your explanations
indeed there are some differences

a double wall even in mesh is preferable than a single wall, I think

BA fly creek offers a solid fabric inside but it is a bit heavy compared to a Tarptent

Myrtille

[. .]

They both have their + and – points. I have used quite a few single wall tents as well, but a key component for any shelter for me is it's wind-blocking and shedding ability and even many double wall mesh tents do not do this well because their rain flies do not come down far enough to seal off drafts at ground level.

Striking the appropriate balance of adjustable ventilation to wind blocking/shedding properties with of course storm worthiness, durability, livability(space + convenience) and weight sums up the challenge in shelter design. Yet still, one must choose according to expected conditions, the variability of which escalates the crux decision and design.

As somewhat of a hybrid approach, if you will, some of Henry Shire's Tarptents have a second skin panel that can be optionally attached underneath the overhead section of the canopy. He calls it the "breathable liner," such as in the Double Rainbow.

[Franco Darioli]

It all has to do with the required level of comfort.
Some are perfectly happy under an open tarp others will lock themselves in a 4 season tent (all zipped up…) in the middle of summer.
Some Tarptents (Rainbow/Double Rainbow and Moment) already are somewhat in between the single and double wall by having one or two walls of mesh and , as described by Aaron, can also have an added liner (about 4 oz/ 113g) if you are in an area where you get a lot of condensation.
Franco
[email protected]

[Roger Caffin]

> The inner tent is in mesh, so it is the same?
Having a separate mesh inner tent just adds to the weight in practice, while not really bring any special advantages. Yes, it is entirely possible to have an insect-proof single skin tent.

The more biased (take me for instance!) among us see most mesh-inner-tents things as just over-weight. A *good* single-skin tunnel tent works very well.

Camp opposite Mont Blanc – it did get a bit windy outside the tent that night.

Cheers
PS: yes, I am biased!

[Sam Farrington]

Notwithstanding Roger's self-admitted bias, a netting inner, IF IT STAYS TAUT, does one thing very well – it keeps the blasted moisture off us and our gear.
One example that comes to mind is the MSR Hubba. While I admit I have not used one, a friend who regularly backpacks the rainy Northeastern US tells me that it has kept her dry in all kinds of tempests. What good is it to keep out the rain, if you are going to be constantly rubbing up against the walls of a sauna anyway?
For myself, I have been using a less buttoned up shelter with a netting inner:
Never a drop of moisture felt when contacting the netting inner

What's just as important is keeping both the inner and outer taut.
If the outer sags onto the inner, Presto – no more 2 walls.
If the inner sags onto us, it will be cramped and uncomfortable, dry or not.
The only ways I know to effectively accomplish this are fabrics that don't sag, and designs that automatically tighten the canopies with bungeed guys or stake-out points.
Yes, I'm into comfort uber alles. I'm s'posed to be having fun, right?

[Stuart R]

> Having a separate mesh inner tent just adds to the weight in practice, while not really bring any special advantages

I agree with Roger. If you are expecting strong wind or snow, a mesh inner will offer little protection – you will be better off with a solid fabric inner. 30D inner fabrics weigh about the same as mesh anyway.

For milder conditions a mesh inner again offers little benefit. With a single wall tent you just wipe off the condensation with a cloth in the morning before sitting up.

BTW, You know about http://www.randonner-leger.org right?

[James Marco]

Well, The condensation benefits are a given. You cannot avoid condensation in small enclosed tents. You have to deal with it one way or another.

Generally, I have found a two piece tent makes things a bit easier. I can use the inner canopy or not depending on conditions and bugs.

I prefer a tarp and bug tent combination for all but the coldest conditions. My wife prefers a single wall tent. Soo, we do both…

Both have good and bad things about them.

jdm

[Sam Farrington]

Certainly you can avoid condensation in lightweight tents.

I can only surmise that many on this site are so wedded to bomber tents, if not single wall tents, that they must have total coverage with little ventilation, and are resigned to condensation.

This is what I saw with the criticisms of TarpTent's first version of the Scarp.
This is what I see when looking at the superlight, supertight Terra Nova tents, for example.
This is what I see from the manufacturers who provide coverage for tempests, but use designs and/or materials that cannot possibly withstand a tempest.
If you build a sauna enclosure, then you get a sauna bath.

You can be quite comfortable in most conditions without total enclosure. Not all of us are going to be Oli crossing Greenland. I am quite happy getting in my car and driving to the CDT, thank you. Plenty challenging, and it costs a whole lot less. Thank you, Motel 6.

AT/Adirondack shelters have been keeping us dry for over a century with one side completely open to the elements. And they are not all in the woods. Many are in high, exposed locations. NH's Cohos Trail Baldhead shelter, for example.

Indeed, many on this site frequently use tarps that do not provide total protection.
And with the coming of new technologies for treating fabrics, it will become even easier to design condensation free shelters.

There is simply no reason to carry a heavier, bombproof shelter year round and in all places, when with a little knowledge and experience, in most times and places one can readily plan for camping below timber/tree line or in protected areas in the event of foul weather.

Those who disagree may be pleased to know that this will be my last comment on the subject. If you want to suffer, go ahead. I will be enjoying both carrying a lighter shelter, and not having wetness rubbing up against and dripping all over me, my tentmates and my gear. Glub.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

I agree that more open shelters generally acquire less condensation, but don't agree you avoid condensation entirely. I've set up simple tarps that were open on all sides and well off the ground and still had the bottom nearly dripping with condensation in less than an hour. Ventilation is one of the big keys to reducing condensation but you can't always avoid it entirely.

[MARTINE LAVOCAT]

Hi!
That is very interesting.
First, Samuel, I had a look at BD (black diamond I suppose? )double walls tents but they are too heavy for me and seem quite expensise too if you buy 2 walls.

Franco, I keep the idea of the breathable liner, it is not sold with the Sublite sil version but I think it will be the BEST and only solution for me, to add up some fabric panel inside.

Lightheart Cuben solo seems interesting concerning comfort but far too expensive!

I have gone through all the ultra light tents and I have not find equivalent to Henry Shires 's Tarptent so far … (exept bivy or too low tents)

As for condensation it much depends on where, when and weather, I have an old cheap single-wall tent and I rarely have condensation (probably it is less probable in France, well depends on the regions too)

Stuart, I do know "randonner leger" site, it is as useful and interesting as BPL!

Merci, à bientôt!
Myrtille

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