Double walled mini volcano kettle

[BlackHatGuy]

nm

[adam blanton]

Re: Re: Kettles Posted 02/13/2011 21:07:19 MST by Douglas Ide (idester)

Golly gee, let's not start this again….

+1 !!!!

[Dave Heiss]

You know, it kinda looks like they threw it together in 7 hours…

I'll stick with the Backcountry Boiler when I purchase one. You can tell Devin has put serious time and thought into it. Way more than 7 hours! His overall design is absolutely brilliant. Only two parts! Well, three if you count the silicon stopper. To me that is simple form + function elegance.

I think TiGoat badly mis-read this one. The BPL community is bashing the mKettle because it's a blatant knockoff. Almost an exact counterfeit of Devin's design. The fact that it turned out to be heavier doesn't mean a lighter one will be better accepted.

Devin brought to life an attractive chimney kettle design with the input of many here at BPL. He builds it, but you might say that WE own it.

[Travis Leanna]

>He builds it, but you might say that WE own it.

Well, I think Devin's kettle, including the research, design, testing, and marketing processes, really embodies the BPL community. The others are in some respects the anthesis of that spirit.

[Javan Dempsey]

No offense to Devin or anyone else here, but what is the significant difference between Devin's Kettle and the Volcano Kettles of the past other than a lighter design?

So hence forth nobody can make a Kettle except Devin? If TiGoat builds one from the ground up that's even lighter, with different materials, what's the foul here?

It's one thing to try and take someone's idea from them through subversion, it's another thing entirely to make a similar (and pre-existing) product, to your own idea.

I'm not the first or only quilt maker. I've got my own style, that I hope nobody blatantly jacks, but there's not much I can do if they decide to, since I won't be perusing patents to anything, however, replication, and making the same basic product are two completely separate things. There are a dozen tent makers now, who's ideas all stem from the same sources, it's apparent in the similarities.

This is like saying anybody else that makes a single wall tent should be boycotted because they're too similar TarpTent. They didn't invent the single wall tent.

I've been thinking about making a line of wide inflatable torso pads for my quilt customers, since Bender has been so back-logged. You guys going to boycott me for that? Bender's the only one making inflatables here currently, but he didn't invent them. Ironically, when I asked Josh at TiGoat if they'd be interested in a model of inflatables, he said no because they didn't want to step on Bender's toes.

When I made the eVent/Cuben mitts, I straightened them out instead of making them curved like the MLD ones, because I like it better that way, and I didn't want to gank their style out of respect, but that, and one different material are all that make them different. Boycott?

Here's a picture of the kelly kettle, pretty generic no?:

[Miguel Arboleda]

.

[Jeffs Eleven]

I guess that I think TiGoat handled it as good as they could have. Name another company that provides a direct link to a competitor on a product page. They we already into it for however much they bought- should they just throw them away? No. I

The only thing don't get is that they say (especially on the cylinder stove description) that Ti is a good heat conductor. I thought it was a poor heat conductor?

[Josh Leavitt]

First off, for all those that still do not get it, or pretend not to, the Tii Kettle is origonal. It is not a lighter copy, and takes nothing, directly from Devin's design. It is unique, and stands on its own, with its own agenda.

I have not misread anything here, I understand quite well how this works. The Tii Kettle was built to prove a point, test some theories, and make a statement. I'm quite pleased with the results.

Lets get real here for a minute, if not for the mKettle those of you that commited to preorders of the Montgomery Kettle a year ago, would still be waiting for your kettles. Oh yeah, you still are. Devin did not make a serious effort to actually get the Backcountry boiler built, until November, a month after the mKettle was made available to the public, and he had not been heard from for months. Did Devin ever build and deliver any of the early kettles he commited to? So yes the mKettle is an absolute blatant copy, that those fans of the Backcountry boiler will need to thank for driving the "industry". And saving Devin from becoming just one more vaporware peddler. As for people profiting from this situation…..hhhhmmmm…….Anyway the Tii Kettle may or may not become a TiGoat product, I am not actually taking pre-orders but I do have a nice list of people that want them. We would make them available to the public for sale, when we actually had them in stock. When the "community" gets invoked around here, it is almost always a farce, and is never actually, principly driven. But, it is always convinient.

Douglas, besides the wonderlust example, there are many more, far more blatant, yet I dont recall hearing the "community" voice their moral displeasure about them.

So 7 hours is apparantly to short, how long should it take? I'll try harder to produce something a little nicer next time. I think that for a product that both boils water and works as a social/politcal/economic science aid, I did pretty good.

BTW, Miguel while you are promoting the TiGoat boycott in Japan, could you please ask some of the Japanese UL cottage manufactures to please respect my intelectual property. Its seems that they are some of the worst copiers of our products.

[Tim Marshall]

i don't see the Tii Kettle as a copy of Devin's design as the MKettle appears to be. It is a smaller version of the style of kettles we're all familiar with. It does appear to take inspiration from what Devin has done, but it isn't a copy of his design. Devin's is spun from scratch, the Tii appears to be a pot with a hole drilled in it and fitted with a chimney and lid. I am not sure if you can carry water in the Tii. The reason the Tii is smaller is because it uses a cylinder for the chimney instead of a cone which leaves more internal volume for water. I assume that it takes longer to boil as a cone chimney should be much more effective but i wonder what the real world differences are. It also appears that the Tii will need something under it to keep from burning the earth (should be factored in to weight, but will be light) I think the Tii looks like the start of a great next step for small solo kettles. However, I think the timing sucks. Normally it takes at least 6 months to a year before other cottage companies come out with their own answer when something new is introduced. This gives the first guy the advantage to make money with no competition at first. Since Devin did his development in public he has lost this time to be the only one with products. I wouldn't trade this and many of us will choose his offering to honor what he put into it and that he shared the process with us. when you make something great it WILL be copied(i wish this wasn't the case), i just wish Devin had more time before that happened to really make his stamp.

-Tim

[. Callahan]

Quote:

"Some people feel that the mKettle bears too strong a resemblance to the Backcountry Boiler by The Boiler Werks. We prefer to stay out of the debate as to who came first, and leave it to the respective parties to sort out. In the interim however, we feel it pertinent to give our customers the chance to make an informed decision, with all options available."

Source: Ti Goat 'mKettle' webpage.

Quote:

"So yes the mKettle is an absolute blatant copy"

Source: Josh Leavitt (Joshleavitt) NEW 7 hours on 02/14/2011 12:12:18 MST.

These statements are incompatible!

[BlackHatGuy]

"These statements are incompatible!"

I don't think they're incompatible at all. The first statement was an 'official' statement, if you will, on the TiGoat business website. The second was Josh's posting on this forum as a forum member, not as an 'official' of TiGoat. He doesn't even have his relationship with TiGoat in his sig.

It's the same, to me, as some of the BPL 'officials' posting in the forums here – they generally do so as individuals and are not speaking for BPL.

[al b]

Devin,
I hope you have misunderstood- I was hoping my idea would be simpler to manufacture (but, as a trade off, losing some features re your design)!!:

perhaps if you think of two drinks cans with their tops cut off: ie pots; now reimagine them flattened into semicircular cans (a hollow C and mirrored C shape):—

when placed together to form a circle, you get a ring (formed of the two half pots C)=O ), with a chimney up the middle. Because each is still just a simple shaped pot, they should be able to be made from one bit of metal (perhaps stamped/drawn) so no welding/sealing at lower end. The tops/lids dont need to be watertight (no double use as water bottles). But this construction should allow the same thickness of alumn=ium as drinks cans.

NB is really very similar to my MYOG idea

Previous explanation

1) manufacture
conceptionally "split the hollow cylinder in two (down its vertical axis)", giving two semi-circular bottles: like 2 extreme versions of a water canteen with a curved inner side to rest against your thigh. When over the fire pit, these are joined back into a "cylinder with a hole(chimney)" by the (reinforced?) neoprene cover.

The disadvantage is, of course, two spouts to fill (roughly equally), but that seems OK. I wonder if this might allow the thinner aluminium be "drawn"/cold punched/forged like drinks cans, and then the top (with spout) could be "press fitted" whilst hot(contracts on cooling) or whatever way drink cans are done.

[Miguel Arboleda]

.

[Josh Leavitt]

Miguel

You said you were privy to the market. There exists a copy of a TiGoat product, by a Japanese "lightweight" or what ever label you want use, manufacture. I'm not going to point them out, I wont promote them.

[Douglas Ray]

Aren't all of these kettles a blatant ripoff of the Kelly Kettle? Who is standing up to defend there intellectual property? No one on this forum can claim to have invented the chimney boiler concept, no one invented a new material or a new fabricating process or really anything else, they just tried combining other people's ideas in new ways until they found a combination that they liked.

That's pretty much how the outdoor industry works, there are very few truly new ideas and everyone uses everyone else's. Most of the companies seem to get along on this topic, with some friendly competition and secrecy at times. But at the end of the day everyone gets to see everyone else's product and copy it if they want to, unless there is something that can actually be patented.

The self-righteous should should be careful, rarely are they completely innocent of what they condemn others for.

[Josh Leavitt]

[Josh Leavitt]

[BlackHatGuy]

"The self-righteous should should be careful, rarely are they completely innocent of what they condemn others for."

Agreed. But would like to add, before it's lost in all the frothing, that Devin never claimed to invent the chimney boiler, and has not been self-righteous in any of this. He simply put together an exceptionally elegant and very lightweight solution to the chimney boiler concept.

[Josh Leavitt]

We have decided to pair the Tii Kettle with a Titaniun Caldera cone, for the most three fuel efficiency possible. This will also make the design that much more different than anything else out there.

[Cayenne Redmonk]

Cool !

[Jeffs Eleven]

The original idea is old.
Devin made one to 'our' standards.
It seems Darren asked Devin about his, then copied it.
Darren got 'caught'.
Josh noticing the stink he got caught in, decided to make his own VERSION. It shares the chimney workings, but is NOT a copy.
Its a non-moral issue for me- which do I prefer- Devin's or Josh's.
For me the mKettle is out. -That is a moral issue.
Hopefully the mKettle guy will walk into obscurity, and the rest of us will have 2 killer chimney stoves to choose from.

[Ken Thompson]

Thanks Cameron. Now I don't have to read the whole thread.

[. Callahan]

Quoted post (since erased) by Douglas Ide, entitled, Incomprehensive drivel!

""These statements are incompatible!"

With an exclamation point no less! Ooooooh.

But, to most thinking people, there is a difference between someone's personal belief/statement and a corporate/business one.

Gee, and just when you thought you had the biggest news scoop of the year…….."

_________________________

Quotes by Josh:

"We prefer to stay out of the debate as to who came first" <-> "So yes the mKettle is an absolute blatant copy"

Douglas, Josh has made these statements in his professional capacity. They directly contradict each other, and as such, are incompatible!

Which part of this remains unclear to you?

I believe that "Most thinking people" realize that Josh is posting in his professional capacity.

Other than mindless abuse, you offer nothing to the discussion.

[BlackHatGuy]

nm

[a b]

Just a crazy thought.. Since nobody here has even tried all these kettles/stoves/volcano thingys, and a lawsuit would cost more than the sum total profit of the entire UL industry, why not just wait till they all come to market and argue which one is better then?
Interestingly there are dozens of tarps and shelters that are extremely similar to one another and you can find people that like one or the other for various reasons.
Anyhow, lets vote with our dollars.
Arguing and personal attacks on the forums are entertaining but ultimately solves nothing.
Tha being said: carry on with the "assualt" lads.

PS. If it makes anyone feel better you can PM me and tell me to "shut the he(l up".. It's cool, i can take it. :)

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