Sunday morning musings on a hybrid poncho tent design

[Dale Wambaugh]

I was looking at hooped bug bivies and wondered….

It would be interesting to have a tunnel style bug bivy that could use a poncho tarp for the fly, making an "instant" double wall tent with floor and bug protection. I'm thinking something with just enough room to sleep on your side or tuck your knees up a bit. The poncho could be simply guyed and staked over the framework provided by the bug bivy. The bivy could be used without the fly for "stargazer" nights.

It might be possible to put pole sleeves in a poncho and have a mating bathtub floor with grommets for the poles for a no bug option, just fly and floor.

For example, a GoLite poncho is 58"x104". The diameter of a circle with a 116" circumference (2×58") is a little over 36" (116/3.14=36.94). That would give a 36" floor width if the poncho was wrapped tight in a half circle. That would only give an 18" peak height which would be okay at the foot end, but it could use more like 30" at the top. You could flare the sides out and raise the head-end peak height, providing some ventilation at the same time. The bathtub sides could be made taller to help close the gap. A foot end panel could be added to the floor section to add weather protection, assuming the "roof" would overlap the end section. The same is possible for the head end, with an eye to ventilation for both. A trapezoidal shaped poncho might work too, with the wider part of the trapezoid over your back and pack when worn. The length could be adjustable in the usual manner for ponchos with a fold-up-and-snap section in the rear.

I just mocked it up with a 3/16" scale model and printing paper. The small wire is 36" long to scale and the white footprint is about the same as my GoLite Utopia 1 floor– 30" x 96". The front "pole" is 2' longer than the width of the poncho. Scale dimensions work out to 36" tall x 50" wide at the head end and 20" tall x 36" wide at the foot end.

The mock up represents size and an approximation of what a poncho with pole sleeves in the hem would look like. An inner bug bivy with poles would "webs" between the fabric and pole sleeves to create some space between. Add some Velcro loops to hold the poncho to the poles. The poles should move inside proportionate to the amount of overlap desired. The model shows a 96" (8') footprint. I'd like just a little more length on the poncho, although beaks are possible too.

[Everett Vinzant]

Okay,

I love your idea. I was considering materials. Have the head end be held up by adjustable hiking poles, one spectra cord, and a Ti tent stake. A poncho made of Tyvek, and the Cuben bathtub bottom has elastic all around it so it snugs to your pad and bag(making the bottom waterproof, and making a pack cover if you need one while on the move), and has a "no see um" connection to the poncho. My guess < 6 ounces.

As a side note, the poncho hood acts as ventelation, and has a "no see um" net inside of it that can be moved to the "face" to stop bugs from getting in.

Modification to poncho/tent design copyright Everett Vinzant

Just a thought

[Dale Wambaugh]

I was thinking of silnylon and of course Cuben comes to mind. I was working away from trekking poles. I was really thinking aluminum or carbon fiber poles for the hoops. Hoops will give better wind performance and allow maximum space for the fabric area.

The current GoLite poncho is 7.5oz and a TNF bug bivy is 22oz, so this can be done with very conventional materials for under 2 pounds.

I think it would be a natural for a manufacturer that is already producing ponchos and tent shelters– a simple merging of the two and nothing new in the way of materials. The real gain is to get the multiple use of rain gear and shelter.

The North Face bug bivy pictured below. Lengthen to suit, knocking off the beak, make the door in the end, extend the side walls up a bit at the head end. Add poncho and shake.

Imagine the GoLite Den made of screen….

[Everett Vinzant]

I agree on your statement about arches. The reason I like the trekking poles idea is: you don't have to carry a single use piece of gear (the metal arch).

Maybe there is a way to design it so that you have the option (hoop or trekking poles)? This would make for a huge benefit, at no real cost…

[Dale Wambaugh]

Or hoops that become fishing poles…. [grin].

Once the trekking poles come into the design, it changes completely. I hear you, but it's not my vision.

With trekking poles you end up with something like with flat panels the SMD Gatewood Cape, which has been expertly designed and crafted already (I own one too).

You could use two collapsed trekking poles on angle across the front with an arched center piece and appropriate plastic plumping on the ends to attach to the pole tips. It wouldn't be as strong or easy to pitch. It all starts to get gadget-y.

[Everett Vinzant]

Fly fishing poles I assume? If I got a little pushy just kick me.

[Dale Wambaugh]

Not at all. I appreciate the discourse!

[David Ure]

Sounds maybe a little like the Luxe X-Rocket?

http://www.hikelight.com.au/prod40.htm

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

I'm not sure that the hooped idea is better than trekking poles. It seems like it would be lighter to just use a larger trekking pole supported inner (ie. Alpinlite Bug Shelter 1.25 or 2.0) than to use a hooped inner since poles add so much weight.

Another idea is to use the HMG Echo I inner (11.5oz) which uses bungie cordage about 12" off the ground to pull the sides of the inner out and give you more space, sorta like a hooped inner would do. You could use this in combination with your poncho tarp & trekking poles to create a sub 20oz shelter. The Echo I inner already has a cuben footwall, so you'd be protected from rain on that end. You'd just need to have enough overhang on the front end to keep that safe.

[CW]

http://www.alpinlitegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=13&products_id=45

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Yeah the AlpinLite Poncho Tent looks like a good way to go.

[David Ure]

Cha-Ching. I LIKE that Alpenlite!

[Dale Wambaugh]

All the poncho/a-frame designs are nothing new really. The X-rocket is pretty much a clone (I'm being polite) of the Gatewood Cape. I think SMD got there first and did a better job.

[Franco Darioli]

The X-rocket is pretty much a clone (I'm being polite) of the Gatewood Cape

Actually , you are not "being polite" , you are dead wrong…
The Luxe X Rocket for a start looks nothing like the Gatewood Cape, however even if it did it was on the market in 2004. As far as I know the Gatewood Cape came out in 2006.

Franco

[Ross Bleakney]

What makes the X-Rocket so darn cool, is that it is double walled, and very efficient in its use of materials. The inner wall has as much material as any inner wall. But the outer wall only covers the top half. It is able to do this by making the inner tent fully enclosed at one end, and fully vented at the top. Add to that mix some really nice details (side entry, etc.) and it is a really nicely designed tent.

The only drawback is that it is a bit heavy, by ultralight standards. I keep hoping that someone will clone that baby, and make a nice version of it in Cuben/Nanoseeum. If someone does, I hope they have the class to ask the Luxe people if that's OK. To be fair, it is possible that someone will create the same thing, just by chance (without knowledge of the X-Rocket). Someone did just that, and wrote about it in MYOG.

[Franco Darioli]

Just got the time line from Michael Wong at Luxe..
The Rocket was born in 2001 .
That became the Takin (Rocket II) in 2004 and eventually the X -Rocket in 2006.
The change from the Rocket/Takin to the poncho version was instigated by the local importer.
I was involved in the changes from the 2006 version to the 2007.

Ross
The X Rocket should be out in Silnylon nesxt spring.
I have been playing with the Lightwave. There is a bit of me in that one too (started before I became part of Tarptent…)
Franco
Dan is correct. It is defined by Luxe as an hybrid.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

I don't know that I'd call the Rocket 'double walled'. The door end is somewhat double walled but most of it's just a single wall. It's a clever design, but I'd rather use the poncho to fully cover the inner and create a true double wall, rather than using most of it to create the vestibule.

I agree that the Rocket & Gatewood Cape are quite different. I don't see any copying here.

[Dale Wambaugh]

I stand corrected. If you go to the Luxe web site, you see "Design of 2007" with the X-Rocket photo(http://www.luxeoutdoor.com/eng/catalog-topic-gallery-view1.asp?id=821&selfpath=/12/125) I did not fully understand that the poncho did not fully cover the nest as with the Gatewood Cape design.

There were some comments on another thread regarding a similarity of the Luxe Habitat to an MSR Hubba and the Luxe Speedup to the Integral Designs Sildome (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/37115/). This lead me to believe that Luxe was doing knock-offs of other designs.

Luxe is not marketed in the US and not known to me until the thread on the eBay listings. I wonder why they haven't formally made it to the US market?

Of course there are all sorts of overlap and similarity of ten designs over the years and I shouldn't jump to conclusions.

[Ross Bleakney]

>> I don't know that I'd call the Rocket 'double walled'.

We may be splitting hairs here, which is why some have called it a hybrid. In my book, though, it is a double walled tent. It exhibits most of the characteristics of a double walled tent. There are two pieces, an inner tent, and a rain fly. On a nice day, you can remove the rain fly. The upper part of the inner tent has no protection from the rain, and breathes well. Thus, condensation is really not much of a problem, as you have the air flow between the two sections.

Most double walled tents these days have pretty thorough coverage for the rain fly. They have bathtub floors and lots of venting on the inner tent. Typically, they have very little waterproof protection from the rain, on the inner tent (other than the bathtub floor). But that isn't how they are all designed. Some have a little protection on the sides. The AlpinLite Poncho Tent, for example, has protection on the sides of the inner tent. I've seen some tents that have a lot of waterproof material on the inner tent, with just a small cap of a rain fly on top (although not many anymore). That type of design is still considered a double walled tent (I think). In general, I don't think the rain fly has to protect you from all of the rain for the thing to be called a double walled tent.

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