- Jun 3, 2006 at 11:37 pm #1218725David CorbinMember
@wildyorkieLocale: New York
Western Nonwovens. Inc. is the manufacturer of the Climashield family of non-siliconized, polyester continuous filament insulation. It claims that it has the highest thermal efficiency of any fill.Jun 4, 2006 at 6:36 am #1357427
David, You can buy both the Climashield HL and XP. I got some XP that was listed as 2.7oz per sq yard. This might be what the “Fact Sheet” is calling 3oz. but I have no real idea about that.
Thru-Hiker.com has the HL listed on his web site for sale at $12.95 a yard. He lists the CLO for the HL at 0.68. I have been told that the CLO for the 1.8 PG Delta is around 0.77 and not the higher number posted here sometime ago. I also have a bunch of the 1.8 PG Delta. I have no idea what the CLO valve gives me and that higher number may even have been for something different than for the weight stuff I have. This is why I like to work with 800+ Down.
I just unrolled the XP and the loft seems to be from about .75inch to 1.25 inch in loft. I will check it later when it has a chance to relax.Jun 4, 2006 at 9:31 am #1357431Miguel ArboledaBPL Member
@butukiLocale: Kanto Plain, Japan
I’m interested in making an underquilt/ serape and would like to use, if possible, pertex quantum and polarguard delta, but have no idea where I might source these materials. Bill, may I ask where you got the PG Delta, and would anyone know where to get Pertex Quantum?
ThanksJun 4, 2006 at 11:17 am #1357439
Hi Miguel, How are you doing? I think the last time I read your Blog you were not (health wise) a happy camper. Hope thinks are under better control for you.
Back in late Summer 2004 someone I know in the Outdoor stuff business had made a production run of a few items using Pertex Quantum and PG Delta. Some of both materials were left over and were what I would say “quietly” put on sale. Three colors of the Pertex Q with two of these colors as “seconds”. I think the seconds material may have been used to get the products passed the pre-production testing phase but that might be wrong. Anyway I had exchanged a few emails with this person and had asked about Pertex Quantum and PG Delta for a few MYOG things I wanted to try. I got a reply about the coming clearance of the extra material and that I would get an email when they were ready to sell the stuff. In Oct 2004 I was able to order 10 yards of both Pertex Quantum (5 yards of 2 colors in seconds) and 10 yards of PG Delta. It seems to have been a one time only opportunity as I don’t think any more of these materials have ever be sold like this since. At the time my sewing skills were not good enough to try on this material and the knowledge that I may never be able to get more caused me to pack it away for a later day.
Over time and up to now I have never heard of anymore being sold to someone like us MYOG folks.
My suggestion and what I have done is bought and tried some Momentum90 (0.9 oz (real weight is 1.1oz per sq yard) Downproof Ultralite Taffeta – Black (60 inch width) $11.95 a yard from Thru-Hiker.com. This material (to me) seems about the same as the Pertex Quantum I have and is just a little heavier. It is really nice and might be worth asking for a sample. Thru-Hiker also sells Epic Maibu which is also very nice but weighs 1.7oz per sq yard.
If you look at the
Thru-Hiker.com web site check out their Climashield HL as a possible replacement for the PG Delta.
Having said all of the above. I have a
Both of these sleeping bag are on sale and use PG Delta. You might be able to modify one of these bags to make what you need. The bags as they are sold are not to heavy and by the time you do a little cutting and re-sewing you might be surprised how light your underquilt ends up.
I have been thinking for awhile that I need to buy one of these bags that are on sale for the PG Delta. Moontrail is here in San Antonio and I may go by next week and see if I can tell how they are made. The Optima bag says it has 33oz of fill. That seems to be about 17 sq yards of PG Delta. I have never taken a sleeping bag apart.Jun 4, 2006 at 1:27 pm #1357442
You have given a lot of valuable information to this forum… thanks. Hopefully my response to your questions will likewise be of value to you.
Your post stated in part, “I have no idea what the CLO valve gives me…”
I would like to first attempt to describe the insulation measurement terms:
Thermal Conductivity – This is an inherent property of a material. Thermal Conductivity differs with each substance and may depend upon on structure, density, humidity, pressure and temperature. This number is always reported for a FIXED THICKNESS and FIXED SET OF TEMPERATURES, as well as keeping the other variables fixed. W/mK (most common), (cal/sec)/(cm2 C/cm), or BTU in /hrft2F are the optional ways of expressing the thermal conductivity. You can multiply a known thermal conductivity value by the appropriate constant to easily convert to another thermal conductivity expression.
The following W/mK numbers are relevant to answer your questions:
Water at 20 C ( 68F) = .580 (This is why you don’t want it in your insulation)
Climashield HL = .089
Insulators = <0.065 (Construction industry standard)
Climashield XP = .043
Polarguard Delta = .041
Air at 0 C (32F) =.024 (The unmoving air is what provides the insulation, not the fiber. The more trapped air, or loft, the better)
Thermal Resistance – This number is always reported for the variable insulation THICKNESS. It is calculated from the thermal conductivity number. 1 divided by the thermal conductivity and then multiplied by the appropriate number for the variable THICKNESS. R Value, m2K/W, clo, and TOG are the optional ways of expressing thermal resistance. You can multiply by the appropriate constant to easily convert from one type of thermal resistance expression to another.
The following R value, m2K/W, and clo values are for a 1” insulation THICKNESS. For example, 2” of an insulation’s thermal resistance can be determined by multiplying the 1” value by 2 and a ½” sample can be determined by multiplying the 1” value by ½.
Water = R value of .249, m2K/W value of .044, clo value of .283
Climashield HL = R value of 1.613, m2K/W value of .284, clo value of 2.846
Insulators = > R value of 2.217, m2K/W value of .391, clo value of 2.524
Climashield XP = R value of 3.382, m2K/W value of .596, clo value of 3.850
Polarguard Delta = R value of 3.515, m2K/W value of .620, clo value of 4.001
Air at 0 C (32F) R value of 6.005, m2K/W value of 1.058, clo value of 6.836
clo/oz – We need to look up WEIGHT yd2 for the specific insulation to determine the clo/oz per yd2. This value is normally just referred to as just clo/oz with the y2 being implied. clo is an easy number to grasp its relevance because 1 clo is the insulation value of an average man’s dress suit. The Climashield XP clo/oz is calculated by taking the 1”THICKNESS clo value I previously listed as being 3.850 and dividing it by the oz yd/2 for 1” THICKNESS which is 5. Reference http://www.climashield.com/pdf/Climashield_HL_Spec_Fact_Sheet_for_CS_Our_Products.pdf for the insulation weight and thickness. 3.850 / 5 = .77. Please note that the Climashield URL reference table number for clo/oz is also .77. A great source for weight and thickness of various other types of insulations is the BPL reviews of synthetic jackets and belay parkas since they state the insulation used and the actual loft that BPL measured.
Your post also stated in part, “I have been told that the CLO for the 1.8 PG Delta is around 0.77 and not the higher number posted here sometime ago.” I was the one who posted the higher number.
I will now calculate the PG Delta clo/oz value using the same procedure I did for Climashield XP. The PG Delta clo/oz is calculated by taking the 1”THICKNESS clo value I previously listed as being 4.001 and dividing it by the oz yd/2 for 1” THICKNESS which is 2.73. This 2.73 thickness value was calculated by taking BPL PG Delta loft measurement for 3 oz/yd2 of 1.1”. See the GoLite Belay Parka measurements in http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/high_loft_synthetic_belay_jackets_2005_review_summary.html?print=1. The adjusted WEIGHT for 1” of insulation, if it were manufactured, would be 4.001/(1/1.1)*3 = 1.47.
To do a simple sanity check of the calculations just note that a 1” THICKNESS yd2 of Climashield WEIGHS 5 oz (Climashield URL) and a 1.1” PG Delta THICKNESS yd2 weighs 3oz (BPL URL). The PG Delta clo/oz is more than double what the Climashield value is and so the clo/oz should be more than double assuming the thermal conductivity values are the same. In fact the thermal conductivity value for PG Delta is better than Climashield. It should be no surprise to anyone that Climashield HL or XP insulated garments are not what Ryan and group will be taking to Alaska.
Bill, you stated in part, “I have been told that the CLO for the 1.8 PG Delta is around 0.77…” I calculate the PG Delta 1.8 oz clo value as 1.2. Remember 1 clo is the warmth you would get wearing a business suit. You can test this clo value subjectively if you have a Cocoon pullover. If it feels warmer than wearing a business suit, then my calculation is probably correct. If it is provides much less than the warmth of a business suit then your source is probably correct.
Richard NisleyJun 4, 2006 at 2:13 pm #1357445
Richard, Thanks for taking the time to explain this, again. I will need to read your comments a few times and then I may understand this all a little better.
As I jump straight to the chase, so to speak, you should have guessed that I am still on and have been on a quest to find a way to get more PG Delta. Taking apart a sleeping bag that is on sale to get more should convince most that I think it is the way to go.
I believe from experience, mine but mostly others, that the PG Delta/Pertex Q used for the Cocoon line of items is the current answer for rainy weather and have both the Cocoon pullover and the Pants. I am waiting for the next items in the Cocoon line.
I just never really understood the tech. side of the answer why.
So after all that, what is the next best insulation when a MYOG person can’t buy PG Delta and wants to make some things vs buy them? Is it worth the effort to salvage it from other things such as a sleeping bag?
Thanks.Jun 4, 2006 at 4:18 pm #1357447
PG Delta has the highest clo/oz value at .68. My original calculation was based on erroneous BPL loft data for a cacluation I used. I suggest you contact the sales department at Western Nonwovens to discuss your small quantity PG Delta purchase options. Their contact information is as follows:
641 Northpark Drive
Clinton, TN 37716
The next two best synthetic clo/oz values are:
Thermolite Extreme – .917 (better than Polarguard 3D only if single layer insulation is less than 1")
Polarguard 3D – .909 (more durable than PG Delta)
OWF's "Polyester Continuous Filament" is Polarguard 3D. They're not permitted to use the name in print, but if you talk to the nice ladies on the phone they'll tell you. Last summer they started closing it out (and they had over 500 yds in stock), but it's still listed on their insulation page @ http://www.owfinc.com/Fabrics/insulation.asp
RichardJun 5, 2006 at 9:20 am #1357469Dondo .BPL Member
@dondoLocale: Colorado Rockies
Thanks for your post. It took me several slow readings but I think I’m beginning to understand where your numbers are coming from. Have you calculated the clo/oz values for other common insulations such as Primaloft One, Primaloft Sport, and Exceloft?Jun 5, 2006 at 10:26 am #1357474
Primaloft One – .840
Primaloft Sport – .740
Exceloft – .683
RichardJun 5, 2006 at 11:39 am #1357476Dondo .BPL Member
@dondoLocale: Colorado Rockies
xJun 5, 2006 at 3:01 pm #1357492paul johnsonMember
@pjLocale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Great info. Many thanks for the very informative posts. BTW, how did you get the CLO values for Exceloft? I could never get Montbell to give them to me.Jun 5, 2006 at 4:29 pm #1357502
I knew the W/m K value was .040. I then used the BPL data in bin/backpackinglight/2004_ultralight_synthetic_insulating_jackets_vests_review.html to determine the loft of the 1.8 oz/yd2 was .3″. From there I just used the clo/oz calculation methodology that I previously posted.
RichardJun 5, 2006 at 4:42 pm #1357505
I was able to talk to Brian Emanuel “Dir of Sales – Western NonWovens” a short while ago.
We talked about a lot of things reference insulation.
When I asked about the clo valve of PD Delta he said it was between .67 and .68.
He said he would try and look at this thread.
I still don’t fully understand the “clo” thing but I do know much more than I did at the start of this thread.Jun 5, 2006 at 6:30 pm #1357508
My Polarguard Delta clo/oz calculation was based in part on the BPL Golite Belay parka review. BPL states that this parka is using 3 oz/yd2 PG Delta insulation and providing 1.1" of loft. If anyone owns this garment please verify the BPL review info and post to this forum.
For now I will assume that BPL made a mistake in their Golite Belay Parka review insulation weight at URL http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/high_loft_synthetic_belay_jackets_2005_review_summary.html?print=1 but their Patagonia Micro Puff Pullover review values listed at URL http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/2004_ultralight_synthetic_insulating_jackets_vests_review.html are correct. BPL lists the Micro Puff as using 2.6 oz/yd2 PG Delta and having a loft of .6". This translates to a revised clo/oz of .923 for PG Delta.
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