A few newbie winter camping questions

[Juston Taul]

In the famous words of Clint Eastwood…

"A man's got to know his limitations."

I can understand and appreciate a budget. I hope someone here who has more experience with layering, to get the most out of their gear can help you more than I. I just have never tried it myself to a large degree. I wish you the best in your endeavors. If you have any more questions, let me know. I'm here often.

[Roger Caffin]

Concrete floors are COLD!

I suggest you experiment with some CCF under your feet. I don't think your pack would be anywhere near enough. Not a chance.

> Will you wake up if your body starts experiencing hypothermia
I think you will shiver yourself awake! It can be very hard to go to sleep when you are that cold – unless you are catastrophically exhausted. Never let yourself get that tired in the winter – very bad idea.

Earplugs – yeah, I know. But they hurt my ears. You will get used to it after a night or two and not notice.

Keep testing!
Cheers

[William McCreight]

If I am right in my information and thinking on the matter, you cannot apparently sleep and shiver at the same time, meaning that if your fear is that of slipping into hypothermia and then progressing on to death without first waking up shivering, I think you are safe. Now shivering uncontrollably, then stopping shivering due to muscular stiffening because of deepening core coldness, that is another matter, but you would likely not be asleep while this was going on. I well remember a night out on a glacier awaiting a helicopter evacuation of an injured climber the next morning, where we had nothing but snow pits and what we had on at the time (no tents, bags or pads). I was the only one who got any sleep at all due to an aluminized emergency bivy bag, and the night went by with my sleeping 20 minutes, waking up shivering for another 20-30 minutes, followed by another 20 minutes of sleep. The others shivered literally all night. Since then, I have read and heard that it is not physiologically possible to sleep and shiver simultaneously, I guess.

[Juston Taul]

@ William

Could you add to your previous post about the injured climber? I'm curious as to how the injury occured, the location, weather, and the reason the entire team was without gear. It sounds like a nightmare situation. Did the injured climber survive? Did anyone else from the group suffer injuries or become ill because of the cold? Sorry for all the questions. The story peaked my interest. I'm glad you made it out okay.

[William McCreight]

This occurred about 30 years ago, was climbing Little Tahoma, a broken topped 11,000 foot cinder cone on the shoulder of Rainier. It is the third highest peak in Washington state, if considered on its own. I was a newbie with the Mountaineers, and this was a more or less introductory glacier/rock peakbag we needed to graduate their intro course. We had basecamped at Summerland, and gone up as a dayhike onto the glaciers with a leader who thought he was "all that," and advised us to leave hard hats, protection, extra clothing and emergency provisions in camp as it was August, and a "walk up" in his opinion. He had just returned from climbing in the Andes, and I think did not take this trip seriously. The guidebooks advise wearing helmets due to the volume of rockfall, and getting up as high as possible on the snow at the base of the peak itself, as it is all loose "mantle rock" (pick up any piece, and take it home to put on your mantle).
On the way up on the rock, two of us successfully scrambled up a chute, and the rest had to find a different route (he advised we leave ropes at the glacier below for this "walk up"). On the way down, we got to the top of that same chute, and he decided to make it a teaching moment, and put two slings together, put one around a rock horn, his foot in the other end, and swung out to reach the next hold, only to have the rock pull, and down he went, about 20 feet, landing stiff-legged in the scree below.
We all circled down via other routes, so as to not knock further rock down on him, and while I was examining his knee, which had had prior surgery, he asks, "Are you a doc?" I said yes, and he replied, "I work with docs, in the Public Health Service." I then said, "Oh, I was just hired to work in Juneau with the PHS." "Oh, who hired you?" Once I told him, I then discovered for the first time, that I was treating my new boss's boss at 11,000 feet on a glacier in the late afternoon, with active rockfall from above, without much equipment!!
We determined he could bear weight on the knee, but could not flex it well, and it was swelling, likely a sprain not a fracture. We girdled the knee up with various CCF pads and folding mesh splint material, and roped him to 5 of us, while one guy went ahead of him and kicked a trench for him to drag his leg through, while active rockfall was coming down from above across our route. This became very slow going, and fortunately by about 5 pm we got to a place where we could slide him down on his behind on a snowfield rather than crevassed glacier to the saddle below.
He was all in by then, so the group split with three of us (including our injured leader) remaining at 9000 feet on the glacier. The remainder of the party left all their spare clothing and food with us, and they boogied out 10-12 miles to the trailhead, stopping to pack up the camp below, getting out around midnight. We decided to pick out a bergschrund and dug out three horizontal shelves back into the snow, placing our heads in at the far end to protect from any rockfall, and to capture the warmth of our breath. As I stated earlier, the night was long and cold, with a little sleep on my part.
The next morning, he could barely move the leg due to swelling and pain, and fortunately the National Park Service decided to send in a helicopter, which they landed on the glacier, leaving a ranger with us and taking only him without his gear. The two of us left behind then hiked with the ranger down off of the glacier to the basecamp, where the ranger then left us to pack up our stuff and his, and hump it back out.
So the long and short, a learning situation which ended well (I never had any "issues" with my boss after that, perhaps because of all this). This was in the pre-MRI days, so he likely was just followed and improved, and I assume returned to climbing, I hope, a little wiser and more cautious. I learned not to listen to "the leader" however experienced he may claim to be, when it comes to a debate between the guidebooks description of a climb and the leader's murky memory of "having climbed this peak years ago", and to be better prepared for emergency bivouac situations.

[Jim W.]

When you're hypothermic, the uncontrollable shivering has stopped, and a peaceful, sleepy feeling comes over you- Don't fall asleep or you'll never wake up.

That's not what happens when you're a little chilled but still able to sleep. A little colder and you won't be able to sleep from the cold. You won't just go from chilled to dead. There will be plenty of misery and shivering long before the danger zone.

When I wake up chilled my solution is to get up and pee if I have the urge, then get back in bed. Put on more clothes or hat if available, double check to be sure I have good insulation underneath, making sure extra gear is under my legs.

Also about 5 minutes of isometric exercises do wonders to warm me up. I alternate tensing leg, arm, torso muscles. (Have you ever been cold doing crunches?

[Michael Ray]

OK. It's good to know I can't sleep through hypothermia. I suspected that was the case, but would rather find out beforehand rather than learn the hard (and final) way.

We're supposed to be at 0 tonight and I'm feeling a bit better so we'll see how it goes.

I'd have to wonder how much CCF under my pack would help. There's so much air space below and above the pack, that I don't see how it would. If extra heavy socks don't solve the cold feet issue, I use my full length POE X-lite Thermo pad next time.

Anyone know the R value of everyday blue CCF vs Evazote/Volara?

Edit: This thread answered my R value question – they're essentially the same. I guess the advantage to the latter is they are lighter and more durable apparently. The blue stuff seems plenty durable to me and much cheaper.

[Michael Ray]

Well, I had a successful night and slept much better despite being over 10 degrees colder at the end. It was 10 F when I started, and my wife came out and woke me up when it was -2 F. Interestingly, the edge of the "hole" in the Sub Kilo was damp rather than frozen from my breath.

I used the same clothing as before, but added earplugs, thick synthetic (maybe wool blend?) socks and my BD lightweight Power Stretch gloves under the heavyweights. My hands were still the coolest part of me so I guess I'll just need to take my normal everyday winter gloves with 100g Thinsulate.

The CCF on top of the NeoAir did seem to make the cold spots a little less noticeable. I think I'd like to make it a sandwich so I have some puncture protection as well.

Granted this test was with no wind. Even with my Lunar Duo pitched as low as I can get it, I suspect there would be some good drafts if it was windy outside.

What are my options then other than a bivy?

Is Evazote/Volara more flexible than blue CCF? Is it really more durable (at 3/8")? I need to buy some more foam anyway for my son to use. Our campout is end of Jan.

[Paul Davis]

Michael: For -18C, if it were me with my popsicle metabolism, I would be using a full-length, more-or-less-solid foam, Thermarest LE, on top of an Evazote 20mm foam pad. I would be using a -5C down 'summer' bag, wearing pile long-underwear, down jacket and pants, and MEC camp booties, polypro contact gloves and a pile balaclava. I would also have a wearable overbag (Wallcreeper).

You may be able to get by with less.

The down jacket and pants and camp booties are great because you can wear them as you take down your tent (Bibler I Tent for me!), as you can the Wallcreeper. This means you don't lose the bubble of warm air next to your body that you (hopefully!) build up overnight. It makes getting up way more civilized!

Get a pee bottle (0.5-1L) which is a different size and shape from a water-bottle, and use that so that you don't have to get out of your bag to pee.

I second the comments on the Neo Air, as it is not a great idea for the winter anywhere. An older Thermarest is likely warmer, and heavier, as they are not cored-out as much as the more modern ones are.

As for Thermoses, if set upside down, with a narrow lid, only filled with water (too difficult to clean!), hot water might not freeze overnight at -18c. Wide-mouth thermoses are great to eat out of and to keep food warm for periods of 3-4hours, even upside down and with an additional styrofoam lid!

Keep experimenting at home! Saves much discomfort in the field!

[Hikin’ Jim]

I hear you on the budget issue. Getting a full sent of winter gear is freaking pricey.

Is there anywhere you can rent items where you live? I know a lot of shops here (REI, Sport Chalet, A16) have various rental items available. If you can rent a winter bag and a full length Thermarest, that might be the way to go.

+1 on the pee bottle. I am NOT getting out of my bag when it's 0F outside.

Another +1 on Allen and Mike's Really Cool Backcountry Ski Book.

HJ

[Bob Gross]

Make sure that you eat a hot meal before sliding into a cold sleeping bag. A friend of mine is a nutrition instructor (and also a good cook), and her suggestion was to eat plenty that is thermally hot and also a little spicy hot. That always worked on snow camping trips.

If I wake up in the middle of the night feeling cold, I will start up a stove and consume hot cocoa and cheese (hot water, sugar, and fat), then try to return to sleep.
–B.G.–

[Roger Caffin]

Instant soup (Cup o' Soup) with noodles isn't bad either.

Cheers

[Michael Ray]

> +1 on the pee bottle. I am NOT getting out of my bag when it's 0F outside.

OK, I've seen many people mention these (incl Mike C! who's apparently had partners dual-use it as their drink bottle in the morning – maybe he was joking), but no practical usage tips. I envision rolling onto your front, getting up on your knees so you're aiming down, hiking down your bottoms, opening the lid of said bottle, insert and do your business, replacing lid, etc. That does not seem like it would be all that easy in a mummy bag (not to mention bad news if a spill does occur).

I've read some tarp users will just unzip the bag (and bivy if in use) and roll over to get the job done.

Do I have it about right?

[Michael Crosby]

I use a 32oz gaterAid bottle as it seals good, has a good copacty and is hard to miss when you are inside the bottle when peeing. I just turn on my side and keep the bottle top raised. Just make sure if you have used it a number of times that night, you know how full it is. I have, up to this point, never had a spill(knock on my wooden head) ;)

[mtnwkr +1]

I use the same method as MC, large mouth Gatoraide bottle, laying on my side. Never had any problems with spillage…

[Bob Gross]

We were on a big climb, and we were going to be out for ten days or so, really high. One older guy, the expedition leader, had packed his own pee bottle since he knew how cold it was going to be, his own internal capacity, etc. He had a tent partner, another older guy, so the leader told the partner that he probably wanted to have another pee bottle to use. So, both guys came prepared.
On the first cold night above 16,000 feet, they each used their pee bottles, and that worked out. On the second night, the partner couldn't find his own pee bottle and used the leader's bottle, so he got yelled at for that. On the third night, the partner couldn't find his own pee bottle or the leader's pee bottle, so he used the cook pot. When the leader found out, he kicked the partner out of the tent, and the partner left for home.
Moral of the story: keep track of your own pee bottle.
–B.G.–

[Hikin’ Jim]

Same here. Lie on side, raise up the mouth of the bottle. I don't unzip or anything else.

I always always always use a different bottle than those I'm using to carry water. Definitely gotta be aware of how full the sucker is especially after a couple of cups of cocoa before bed time. Diet coke bottle will work but a wide mouth is preferable. Don't ask me how I know that. :)

HJ

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