Big Agnes Fly Creek UL2 Tent Review

[EndoftheTrail]

I wish they would listen to reviewers and fix the fly over the door and add the vents. Until they do, I guess I'll pass.

YMMV here, but I for one wouldn't want the door fixed and the vent (or lack thereof) to me is fairly minor. Most tents with overhanging 'awning' above the tent door incorporates a pole section. This adds weight, which folks would have to carry all day, every day. And even without a pole section, an entrance with some sort of overhang will require more fabric. OTOH, scampering in and out of the tent quickly in the rain, followed by a few wipes, is more than a fair exchange. I see this as a design choice and not as a 'flaw' per se.

As for a top vent, I guess it wouldn't hurt if one can be added with no perceptible weight increase. But having used the SL2 for years in both rain and shine — the lack of a vent just hasn't be an issue at all for me — not even a little bit. But as prefaced, YMMV.

Oh, very nice review, Ray.

[Raymond Estrella]

Thank you all, I will try to reply to as many of your questions and comments as I can.

Hey Dan,

This review is in support of, and part of, the SOTMR we are doing on double-wall, two-person tents. There are hybrids out there that blur the lines as you correctly point out.

I have not seen the 2P Haven. I have been checking the blog but have not seen anything yet. Do you have a link? It would be great to get it included.

David, I always use the footprint “if” the manufacturer sends it. Yes, the footprint was under it. But the rain was so hard that it was flowing between the footprint and the tent on the right side of the tent (while looking at the picture). At the height of the down-pour that section was at least 2 in (5 cm) deep.

Frank, I am a gear whor.. hound. I still have clothes from 10 years ago, but I love pushing the limits of hiking gear, so I have new shelters about three (or more) times a year. That is why I was asked to start testing gear and eventually made it here. (What did the Jefferson’s say? “Movin’ on up, to the top. To a deluxe shelter set up high…) How many do I own? Right now that I own and use with the kids (in Minnesota) and in California solo or with Dave or Jenn:

Bibler Fitzroy 4-season tent
Big Agnes String Ridge 4-season tent
Big Agnes Seedhouse SL2 w/CF poles
MSR Prophet 4-season tent
REI Base Dome 6P 4-season tent
Sierra Designs Hercules Assault V.2
Tarptent Rainbow
Tarptent Hogback

Those are all tents that I bought, except for the SD which I tested for BGT.

As I just got divorced I sold a bunch of other tents in the past six months including a TT Scarp 2 and a BA Seedhouse SL3, and gave the BA Copper Spur 3 to the ex. I give lots of gear away to family too.

Since 2003 my focus has been on backpacking and the gear it takes to do it right. (You guys here are making me re-define right as “light”.) So don’t worry about the gear wearing out Frank. The only thing that is getting worn out is me!

Ten Ton you are correct, I forgot to mention the Fast-fly set up. When I get back to California I will weigh the body and give a Fast-fly weight for you guys.

Mike, the weather was never really hot enough to notice, but I have a lot of use in a Copper Spur 3 (and will be reviewing the 2 in the future) which has the same walls. I never noticed it being hotter than the Seedhouse 3. And I agree the Copper Spur has a lot more room for two to sit up. As far as condensation on the floor I did get some last fall only when it was on grass. It was about 4:00 pm and the humidity was pretty high. What was strange was that the floor felt a bit damp but there was nothing on the inside of the fly. I have never seen this happen in the mountains of California though.

Ben, I just spent maybe the wettest night I ever have in a Terra Nova Laser. It was raining too hard to open the top of the vestibule to create some draw and I had condensation dripping from the fly onto the inner. The same thing occurred to Jenn and I in the Seedhouse SL3 one spring night in Utah. The tents with top vents seem to do better. Dave is testing a Big Sky Revolution and he says he has not had one bit of condensation in it yet. (That is a pretty nice tent to tell the truth.)

[F. Thomas Matica]

It would seem that with little weight penalty(I know 1 gram is too much)that there could be some door flap extensions added to that one could set up a covered vestibule with trekking poles as support. A couple two-way zippers on the right entry door might also be propped out as an awning. Henry has done that on my Rainbow and, although it may make entry a little more awkward, it sure provides better rain protection and more open, psychological space if stuck inside for long periods. How do you cook when it's pouring?????
Functionality really suffers sometime just to save and ounce or two.
Like the latest article says, just lose a half pound in your own weight and take the luxury tent model on your next trip.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

"I have not seen the 2P Haven. I have been checking the blog but have not seen anything yet. Do you have a link? It would be great to get it included."

Unfortunately I don't have much info to add. My understanding from following SMD for the past few months is that the Haven is essentially going to be a 2 person version of the 27oz Vamp. I'm guessing it will weigh about what the Fly Creek UL2 does, until the cuben version of the Haven is released which should shave off another 6oz or so.

The 1P Vamp is quite a spacious one person shelter with a 36" wide and 43" high roof, a 107" length and a floor width tapering from 44" to 26". Accordingly, I expect the Haven will be quite livable for two as well. Ron has stated both of these shelters are designed to be suitable for larger hikers. Ron posted part 1 of his new products blog back on Nov. 25th, so part 2 with the Haven info has gotta be coming soon. Perhaps you should contact Ron Moak and mention you are doing the SOTMR and he might leak you the details.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Regarding the MSR CR2 (which I have owned) versus the Fly Creek UL2, here are the key differences that I can tell:

Fly Creek UL2 Advantages:
– Significantly lighter trail weight (2.39lbs vs. 2.99lbs)
– Sorta freestanding
– More floor area with 52" width tapering to 42", whereas the MSR CR2 is about 42" wide the whole way.
– Door is easier to use with two since it's on the end rather than on one side.

Carbon Reflex 2 Advantages:
– 10,000mm waterproof floor (vs. 1200mm)
– Rain doesn't fall into tent when door is open
– A lot more headroom as the sidewalls slope outward, so at the ceiling the CR2 is 50" wide and 40" tall. The walls of the Fly Creek slope inward until they meet 38" above the floor.

[Keith Selbo]

I'm impressed by the light weight. I made a single wall sil-nylon Bilgy tent that weighs about the same (including tent stakes, but not including poles because you hold it up with your trekking poles)so my hat's off to BA. A double wall tent that light is truly a great accomplishment.

I've always found it a bother to be continually zipping and unzipping the door of my tent, so I'd like to see a door with a U shaped zipper that would drape over the opening even when unzipped.

[YAMABUSHI !]

the fly sits quite low when pulled taught

and with just 2 to possibly 6 inches of netting around the whole base its be fairly bug resistant

(similar to tarptents from what ive seen, although i never handled one)

a REAL rainstorm may prove problematic but we'll soon once the tinkering begins

Raymond- Id like to know how much it weighs fastfly…

my SL2 loses over a pound with out the body

[Ross Bleakney]

Not to change the subject too much, but I find it interesting that the cottage tent makers (with the exception of Terra Nova) don't make the lightest double walled tents. Like some have said, you could consider a tarp and bug bivy to be a double walled tent, but those generally lack the room of a typical tent (single or double walled). They also don't generally offer breeze protection, which is one of the advantages of double walled tents.

There is no free lunch with tent design. As much as Big Agnes deserves credit for building a very good tent, much of the weight savings is due to its small size. It has quite a bit less room, than, say the TarpTent Squall 2 (which is one of the smaller 2 person offerings by TarpTent). As Ray said, one of the other compromises is to lower one end. Personally, I don't mind paying that price to save a few ounces.

I'm sure a good chunk of the weight of this tent is in the poles. This makes it free standing (which is nice) but it is a pretty big price to pay for ultralight folks who are carrying poles (it is even a substantial price for the folks who don't carry them).

All of this leads me to wonder whether the cottage tent makers might consider making a trekking pole supported double walled tent. Basically, you could take the same design as this tent, but support it with trekking poles. Another way to think of it is to take a Squall 2, replace the bottom mesh with nylon, replace the top nylon with mesh and remove the attached vestibule. Now, you just need a big cover (which would include the vestibule). From an ultralight standpoint, there is one really big advantage to this design: you can have the option of making the rain fly out of Cuben. It would be a stand alone piece, so, presumably offering it as a separate option would be easier (someone else might even offer it, if the tent maker didn't want to bother with Cuben). Since the rest of the tent would be mostly mesh, the difference between silnylon and Cuben on the main body would be minimal. Plus, folks are hesitant to use Cuben on the bottom of the tent (in part because of concerns about abrasion resistance but also because of the cost if it does get worn out).

I also want to add that I would also want the main part of the tent to use nano-see-um, since that could result in substantial weight savings.

Another idea would be to use four poles for support. If you are designing this as a two person tent, then assuming that you have four poles makes sense. As with all trekking supported tents, the makers could, of course, sell regular poles as well (to those who don't carry trekking poles). A four pole design could be symmetrical, offering the flexibility that Ray wanted, but did not get, in this tent.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

"All of this leads me to wonder whether the cottage tent makers might consider making a trekking pole supported double walled tent…"

I'm pretty sure the upcoming 2 person SMD Haven will be exactly this…and the already announced 1 person SMD Vamp is. The big difference between these and other cottage manufacturer tarp/net tent combos is the use of two trekking poles to give some serious headroom. The Vamp has a 43" high ceiling and it's 36" wide at the widest.

Here is a picture of the Vamp:

More pics:
http://community.sixmoondesigns.com/photos/vamp_tarp__nettent/picture316.aspx

The soon to be announced SMD Haven should be essentially a 2 person version of this tent. The Vamp weighs 27oz (16oz tarp, 11oz net tent) plus stakes (~2oz) for a total trail weight of 29oz. I'm guessing the Haven will weigh about 40oz but when the cuben version arrives that will shave about 5-10 oz off.

I imagine the initial Haven will compare similarly to the Fly Creek UL2 in terms of price and weight. The main difference is likely to be that the Haven uses trekking poles and with that weight savings is able to offer more space….I shouldn't say too much though since info on the Haven is few and far between and I'm mostly just guessing. Ron has added the Haven to the SMD main page but you can't access the info yet.

"I'm sure a good chunk of the weight of this tent is in the poles…"
Yup….the poles comprise 10.2oz out of 38oz. I'm amazed at how light this tent is considering it doesn't use cuben or trekking poles which in my mind are the two big opportunities for weight savings. If Big Agnes made a trekking pole supported version (maybe use 3 with the current layout) you'd have a 2 person double wall tent at 28oz….or 1.75 lbs….incredible!

For comparison, the MSR Carbon Reflex 2 has 7.7oz worth of stakes. It's remarkable that the Fly Creek UL2 is 10oz lighter yet uses 2.5oz heavier poles. That means the actual body/fly is about 26oz vs. 39oz.

[Ross Bleakney]

Very good point, Dan. A little while after I posted that comment, I thought "wait a second, doesn't Ron have something like this in the works?". Yes, indeed he does. This is exactly what I meant and I think it will be a fine tent. I personally would have the solid fabric coming up the tent a bit more, but that is just tweaking.

One little point point though, and that is that a lot of the cottage tent makers use two poles for support. The TarpTent Squall 2 has had that option for a while now.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Ron messaged me today to say that he hopes to have the details on the Haven on their site in the next 10 days.

And yeah, the bathtub floor is fairly minimal in the Vamp but it should still do the trick. It's a big improvement over the Refuge tent which didn't have a bathtub at all.

[Ross Bleakney]

The lower part of the walls on a double walled tent offer more than just "bathtub" performance, they offer a nice wind break, and can allow for a smaller rain fly. To me, a bathtub floor only needs to be an inch of two above the bottom. But a windbreak (ideally) should be bigger. That is what Ron built that for, I just wish it was a wee bit taller (to provide even more wind protection). I think a substantially taller section of solid fabric would actually save weight (since the fly could be smaller). Of course, doing that provides less ventilation. Again, these are tweaks and trade-offs; I could see the design evolving.

I have the Refuge-X, and I think Ron made a good case for why it wasn't needed (I'm not sure if I completely agree, but he makes a good case). I don't miss the bathtub.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Interesting point about the floor walls acting as a wind block and the potential savings by raising the fly. You've got me thinking about possibilities for tent designs that blurr the line between single wall and double wall. For example, you could have the lower 3/4 of the walls of the tent be fabric (like the Big Agnes), and then the fly would only clip onto the top of the tent like a hat and cover the upper mesh 1/4.

The Big Agnes Fly Creek UL2 is almost like this already, but it has a mesh door and thus uses a full length fly. If Big Agnes made the floor mostly fabric like the walls, then they could cut about 3 feet off the fly and really just make it a lid for the mesh ceiling.

[. .]

Ray, thank you for the meticulous and pleasant review!

One follow-up Q. for you:
When you have the scale out to weight the fast-fly set-up, would you weigh the other components and post the data, as well? I'm curious how much each of the inner, poles and fly weigh separately. Thanks!

[Franco Darioli]

Dan
"Interesting point about the floor walls acting as a wind block and the potential savings by raising the fly"
That is pretty much the way the Luxe X Rocket is designed . The "fly" is also poncho tarp.
http://www.luxeoutdoor.com/eng/catalog-topic-gallery-view1.asp?id=821&selfpath=/12/125
Franco

[David Ure]

Franco – any idea as to whether these designs will make it to the US?

[Franco Darioli]

There is some talk of a possible US agent.
I would think that some of the 2010 shelters will be of more interest there than the current line up, however the X Rocket has a lot of potential there as it is (in polyester) and would also be of more interest to some in silnylon, albeit at a higher price.
Franco

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

That X Rocket is a neat design. It would be a winner with trekking poles and cuben.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Ross, you aren't interested in selling your RefugeX are you? I was going to PM you but you don't have that set up.

[Raymond Estrella]

Ten Ton and Aaron,

Sorry to take so long to get back to you.

The footprint and pole weights were in the specs, they are 5 oz (142 g) and 10.2 oz (289 g). The Fly weighs 11.7 oz (332 g) and the Inner weighs 14.2 oz (403 g. So a Fast Fly set-up with at least four stakes would come in at 1.81 lb (0.82 kg).

I never do a fast fly in bug season but like it in packed snow when the weather is nice. (i.e. no wind!)

[YAMABUSHI !]

Thanks Ray.

much appreciated

[Laurence Beck]

I have a BA SL1 and I love the fact that it's a standalone, double walled, one man tent with enough room to maneuver in. I use a 20 inch wide mat and there is plenty of room on each side to store stuff.

I notice that the FC1 is similar to the SL1 but 1 inch narrower and 4 inches less in length. I am 6ft, 195 and I think it will still be fine but, is the FC1 obsolete anyway since the FC2 is only 4-5 oz heavier and it is a two man tent?

[Bob Gross]

I have one that I purchased about three months ago, and I haven't gotten around to using it yet (other than in my living room to test it). Personally, I don't need the extra 4-5 ounces of a larger tent. In fact, I'm now thinking that this one is too heavy for one specific trip, and I may revert to an older SpinnShelter to drop over a pound.
–B.G.–

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Does anyone know if the polyurethane coated silnylon used for the floor of the Fly Creek is slippery like regular silnylon? Or does the PU coating do away with this? On both sides?

[Bob Gross]

The answer is: it depends.

It depends on what you call regular silnylon. I have some of it that is extremely slippery, and I have some that is not at all.

I did not find the Fly Creek 1 floor unusual, but then, I only felt the inside and not the outside.

–B.G.–

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