Recommend Big 3 as “loaners” for Scouts

[Acronym Esq]

> I was also thinking of building up a big 3(+), to include a couple of dozen sets of gear

Sounds like fun. 2 suggestions:
1) Whenever you think you should make something – don't. The boys should make their own with your close supervision.

2) The BSA(merica) has recently developed a problem with homemade alcohol stoves. I don't know what the (BSA)ustralia thinks about them, but you should check.

acronym 6/16/2010 12:39 AM

[Doug Johnson]

I have a friend who started an ultralight backpacking course in his middle school and when he and I were looking at gear for his program, we selected the Golite Hex shelters. Now the Golite Shangri La tents- either the 3 or 5. These tents are big to fit several scouts, are ultralight yet durable, and they're modular- if the floor is destroyed you only replace that.

An idea…

[Adam Kilpatrick]

Thanks for the reply :-)

1) I'd love to do this too, and it would be part of the plan to be able to get interested Scout Troops (10.5-14years old in Aus) and Venturer Units (14-18) to build their own gear with experienced supervision. To start with though, I'm thinking it easier and more worthwhile with my own limited resources and manpower (and struggling to find other people who are interested…its pretty hard round here) to just supply the gear on loan for trips, as well as some training and leadership with it. Once they understand using the gear a bit more, and are interested (the major issue) in doing more bushwalking, a future step would be for them to make or purchase their own gear. Prior to that I think its more important to get them interested, take them out, and make sure they have a good time so that they want to do it again. One of the big reasons why I want to develop a quality ultra-light gear set and train them; too many Scouts head out on their first walk with massive, awful packs and gear and never want to do it again.

2) That sucks. I don't think Scouts Australia even knows that its possible to make your own stove, so it shouldn't be a problem. Few people in Aus do. Trangias are really popular, and although I don't think there are any SS&Ps (Safety Standards and Procedures-our national document relating to safety rules for activities) relating to stove use while bushwalking, there is a general consensus that only metho stoves are to be used by Youth. In South Australian schools (which, greatly, but also sadly do more bushwalking than Scouts do), there are firmer rules, about stove use. For example, only Metho stoves (I don't think they deliberate only trangias or for particular designs), fuel and refilling must be supervised by an experienced leader, and only trangia brand fuel bottles (due to their safety spout) are to be used.

Good Scouting,

Adam

[Bob Shaver]

I love alcohol stoves, the Caldera being my go to stove. But anything that can go wrong will go wrong with scouts. My scouts didn't get my MSR Dragonfly put together right, and it sprayed gas all over, and when they lit it one kid had a fireball on his hand, and my pump unit melted.

Do that with an invisible flame, and oh my. Maybe that is why in the US they recommend only using compressed gas for scouts. I have to agree.

Tents: we have 2 man big agnes tents, that weigh about 5-6 pounds. They get a lot of abuse over a season, but split between two scouts they are ok for weight, easy to set up, and fairly tough. We have some rain on trips, and need mosquito protection. They always find a way to carry a tent between 2 scouts, even small ones.

going light: the biggest step we take for going light is to weigh packs, and take out unnecessary spare clothes and redundant gear. I take a few spare raincoats and fleece pullovers to loan out, but rarely need them. Super light packs won't work unless you have sleeping bags that will go in them, which is why the external frames are good.

[Scott Lehr]

We offer 20% discount to all scouts who are getting ready for a trip and 15% any other time, on everything.

[John Giesemann]

This reply may be a little late, but maybe not too late.

I think you should look at Slumberjack sleeping bags. I know that these are not on many people's radar, but the are very reasonable priced and reasonably light. Slumberjack has the Super Guide Thermolite Extreme 30 degree bag, only $50 at Campmor and 2 lbs 9 oz. Or there is the Ultimate 20 Thermolite Extreme for $60 and 3 lbs. I am sure you can find these on sale cheaper and/or get a discount for Scouts. By the way, my son used the Super Guide bag for his entire experience in Scouting (8 years to 18 years, Eagle Scout) including 2 trips to Philomnt and several 3 to 5 day trips outside Scouting. It has held up quite well.

Also, consider Eureka tents. They have a couple of lightweight models that are quite durable and all are priced very reasonably. I have owned 2 Eureka tents for at least 10 years, put many nights on them and they are still in excellent condition.

For backpacks, consider the Kelty packs and the GoLite packs. Both are reasonably priced. The Kelty packs are very durable and some are pretty light. GoLite has some light packs that can be found quite reasoably, even cheap. I got a 2 lb, 4,500 ci Pinnacle pack recently for $43. Hard to beat. This is a frameless pack and probably not what you want for Scouts, but it is an example of a good pack for a great price.

The advice about Alps Mountaineering equipment bought from their ScoutDirect site is excellent. They have great prices for solid equipment. Their tents are very competitive on weight if you get the right one. Their sleeping bags and packs ot so competitive on weight, but great prices.

Hope this helps and that you are making progress equipping your Scouts.

[Justin Hamblin]

Recreationoutlet.com has the Ledge Recluse 3 man tent for $89. I bought one earlier this summer. It comes in at 6.5 lbs. It is big enough to sleep 3 scouts and has dual entrance and dual vestibles, aluminum poles/stakes. I really like mine.

[Eric Lundquist]

Granite Gear Virga – $110/19oz
Marmot Pounder – $110/22oz (campmor.com)
Cocoon Silk Liner – $50/5oz "keeps bag clean from scouts"
REI Half-Dome -$179/61oz "best price:weight ratio for tent?"

Total Each Scout – $359.5/76.2oz (4.76lbs)

[Acronym Esq]

> REI Half-Dome -$179/61oz

The Half Dome is at least a 5 lb tent (80 oz).

acronym 9/28/2010 9:22 AM

[Eric Lundquist]

"The Half Dome is at least a 5 lb tent (80 oz)."

You are correct, I listed the footprint/fly weight only. oops.

(Adjusted) Total Each Scout – $359.5/85.7oz (5.36lbs)

[Aaron Reichow]

For shelters- what about some of the tents offered by Luxe Outdoors? They've a great price to weight ratio and are made of more robust fabrics than a lot of the UL shelters used around here. I've read good things about their tents. They're a bit heavy for most BPLers, but seems like the sweet spot for a Scouts.

Luxe Outdoors Habitat – 2P, 4.2 lbs – $160-220 – Improved clone of the MSR Hubba Hubba.

Luxe Outdoors Mini-Peak II – 1P, 2.5 lbs – $100 – Pyramid w/ net tent

[Acronym Esq]

> Luxe Outdoors Habitat – 2P, 4.2 lbs

I'm interested. Is there a US dealer?

acronym 11/10/2010 1:09 PM

[Sarah Kuhn]

Still have to say for tents the Alps Mountaineering/Scout Direct Zephyr 2 or 3 is one of the best deals out there….. at 4lbs 12oz & 5lbs 7oz, virtually freestanding (need 2 stakes for vestibules) and priced at $93.50 & $105.50!!
Our troop carried a Zephyr 2 & 3 this past summer at Philmont and both worked splendidly!!! We've had them for about 3 years now and they are still going strong!!

[David Olsen]

I got into sewing from needing gear for Scouting that was
either unavailable or too expensive.

I now have quite a bit of scrap fabric in some pretty large
pieces that I donate to scout groups.

Mostly 30d, 70d, and 210d coated nylons which make good
tarps, stuffsacks and packs.

For shelters, tarps can have advantages over tents if your
hiking areas don't demand a full tent. Some groups to
Philmont have used pyramid tarps. They liked smaller ones
to fit the existing tent spots.

For adults needing to keep an eye on youth, a tarp pitched
up off the ground gives one much better visual supervision.

[David Olsen]

Down itself is quite durable, it is the baffles that are
fragile. Synthetic insulation needs care too. If it is dried
too hot, it melts and shrinks. I have seen winter synthetic
bags go from fitting someone at 6'6" and having 8 inches of
loft go to fitting someone 5'10" and have 5 inches of loft
in one washing and drying cycle.

[James Marco]

I bought a couple of these to use as travel bags. They DO NOT hold up.
I broke a zipper before I got it fully loaded. They are just cheap cast white metal.
Please avoid these for the scouts.

[Erik Danielsen]

A second opinion: I've bought two different $30 OP packs at walmart (the skyline and the arrowhead) and I've been surprisingly impressed with both. I have not been kind to them, and I have packed them with far more than they ought to carry. The arrowhead is still going strong despite me stripping it down to just the harness, packbag and lid via razor blade (making it a decent $30 frameless SUL pack) and the skyline, while newer, seems very solidly made to me. I'm lending it to a friend for a trip to egypt in a few weeks and I'm confident that it will hold up fine.

Possible issues for scouts: The hipbelt on the arrowhead has the shortest fins I've ever seen on a padded hipbelt, and the adjustability is mediocre. The shoulder straps are pretty basic too. The suspension fits me just great, but I seem to be in OP's pack-design sweet spot for body type, so it may fit only a narrow range of scouts. Other than that it's a decent pack, and quite light for what it is.

The Skyline has possibly the comfiest hipbelt I've ever used and the materials seem almost as durable as the cordura on my GG Vapor Flash, but it is a smaller pack (~2000 cu.i.) and the top opening design is weird (it's a lot smaller than the diameter of the packbag), which can make loading the pack more difficult. Apparently the older Skyline packs (like mine) are slowly being replaced by a new, similar but flimsier model with a slightly different suspension, so that may make a difference. The newer one is about a pound lighter though.

The OP packs available cheaply on campmor also have my recommendation (I use a stripped-down pinnacle pack in preference to my GG as a loadhauler). As mentioned, all OP packs seem to fit my body like magic while pricier packs just never quite do it, so YMMV.

[Matti West]

I just purchased half a dozen Osprey 48 litre packs that can adjust to kid's height etc. Had 4 kids use them on the weekend and was very impressed how they made the trip a lot more comfortable for them compared to the kids who "borrowed" a pack from mum or dad.

I paid $159 each for them, great value as we will rent them out at $5 a weekend. So if they last 20 trips I will be happy.

Next would be good stoves, sleeping bags are pretty tough and we stress to any new scout parent that they must buy a good quality bag.

Probably cheaper in the States than down under

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