Bivy sack for synthetic quilt?

[David Patterson]

Hows it going guys,

I’ve been thinking over my gear list a bit, and am currently using a Spinnshelter (full rain protection) for my 3 season shelter. I’m thinking about switching to a lighter, standard tarp (either the ID SilPoncho, since I’ll already be using it for raingear) or the new BMW Stealth O Nano prototype. I’ll be using a Ray-Way synthetic quilt (Polarguard 3D) and was wondering whether it would be neccessary to have an added bivy sack for protection from wind-driven rain.

Thank ya,

Dave:)

[paul johnson]

Look at any picture of DrJ under his tiny tarps. Is he using a bivy sack? In all of the pics I can recall seeing, the answer is ‘yes’.

More importantly, how much rain do you expect to see and what low temps and wind might you encounter? How you answer these questions will tell you how important a bivy sack will be to you, i.e. could you get along without it, but wish you had it? Or, is the answer more like “I might not make it through the night and see morning without suffering hypothermia”?

Lastly, what is your solution for bug protection if you are not using a bivy? Is it just a bug headnet with an open quilt? If it’s hot enough for bugs, it might be warm enough to throw off the quilt at some point while sleeping. Or, will you just slather yourself in 8hr bug repellent before turning in?

[David Patterson]

Point taken Paul, thanks.

The one thing I didnt realize was that bivy sacks were an important insulation layer – if I understand your response correctly. Aproximately how much warmth does the standard bivy sack add to your sleeping bag (simply in the fact that its an added layer above and below your body…and not including the fact that it adds potential warmth in keeping your bag dry)?

Thanks,

Dave:)

[Ryan Faulkner]

I kind of moved away from bivy sacks for 3 season. I like the freedom and weight savings of a groundcloth. I just felt restricted in my bivy, it was hrder to adjust my bag and pad and I sometimes got condensation. I will take my bivy in the winter and late fall. but for the rest of the year, it is not necessary, look at Andy Skurka, Coup, Brian Robinson and Glen Van Peski they dont use bivies. you just have to set up your tarp properly. A taught A frame has never been a problem for me in any condition.

I say go for the tarp poncho. I have a cat tarp. and love it, it is easy to set up and works well in high winds and rain but it can only be set up in an A frame. But I have had just as much sucess with my poncho in these conditions, and you have more pitch possibilities.

[paul johnson]

David, Often people say a bivy sack adds 5 deg. warmth. Yet, I once “parroted” this info and DrJ posted back and corrected me. The real benefit is in blocking the wind. Wind can cut right through a sleeping bag or a quilt, especially lighter, thinner warmer weather bags, hence the need under these conditions for a bivy sack. Sometimes, unless rain is expected all weekend, I like carrying my custom-made MtnLaurelDesigns Epic bivy (10oz with full zippered entry and bug netting) even if I’m carrying other shelter. If there is no rain, or it’s light or intermittent, then I’ll just use the bivy and not the other shelter. It’s great sleeping out in the open.

Note also RyanF’s comments. He has a point. One thing to keep in mind is that some of the people mentioned are not exposed to the level of bug pressure that we are in the NE. Also, some of those demi-gods camp in drier, warmer climes. That’s why I mentioned asking yourself those questions about temps, wind, rain, and bugs in my prev. post. Your answers to those questions will determine if you really need a bivy. Only you can answer those questions for yourself. Also, the tarps and p-t’s you’re speaking of are on the small side. They won’t provide much coverage in the event of driving rains. No bivy and your quilt will get wet and lose insulating value even if it’s a synth. quilt. Consider an extended p-t (MtnLaurelDesigns, Equinox, or DancingLightGear). Take a tiny tarp or a small p-t with a quilt up in my neck of the woods in the early spring and if we get rain all day and 1″-4″ per hour of windy/gusty rain/freezing-rain mix all night (jet stream allowing colder air to come down from Canada, mixing with warm, humid air coming up the east coast from the south), you’ll wish for a bivy or a floored rain-proof, bug-proof shelter like the SMD LSe.

So, the answer to your question is really dependent upon the conditions that you expect to encounter. Both RyanF’s and mine advice are correct for certain conditions. Only you know the conditions you expect to encounter. My two shekels.

[David Patterson]

Agreed in both respects. I’m a northeaster too, and I too know how horrible the mosquitoes can be in their prime (I got eaten alive last summer in the Adirondacks, even with my headnet on!), so thats definitely something to consider…and I’m also really only backpacking in 3 seasons at this point, so I won’t be expecting temperatures to go any lower than 35 degrees (for which I’ll always be carrying a Patagonia puff pullover and balaclava). The wind and rain would probably be my biggest determinants…..but I do intend on carrying a polycryo groundsheet with me wherever I go, and I dont mind pitching my tarp low enough so as to avoid wind-driven rain. Ugghh…those skeeters though….

Thanks again guys,

Dave:)

Any other opinions?

[paul johnson]

Skeeters, Black Flies, and Midges – Oh, my!

For 3oz there’s the GG BugNet that you can use with any tarp – shaped or flat and most any pitch. Last time I mentioned this aother Poster mentioned the DLG (dancing light gear) bugnet – weighing in at something like 2.25oz …or, was it 2.75oz? For peak bug season you might want to consider a HS tarptent, or one from SMD, heavier, but great when it comes to the skeeters – just a thought.

The NE, ok, just to remind you, keep in mind when it really starts coming down in torrents, even your carefully selected site and any “rain gutters” you may have dug before turning in may be overwhelmed with runoff – hence the need for a bivy or a shelter with a bathtub floor. Now, these conditions are not common, but “rare” might be too strong a word to use also – especially at certain times of the year.

[David Patterson]

Paul,

I have thought about the bugnet, but thought maybe I’d try getting by with just my Outdoor Research headnet (since it has an aluminum ring to keep the netting at a distance from your face) that replaced my old and useless one that did me in from last season.

I also have a Squall 2 that I used last year in Denali….where the mosquitoes were small, but persistant!, and it worked wonderfully. The thing is, it weighs in at close to 2.5 lbs (like you said) with the no-see-um netting and extended sewn in floor….and at this point is really only being used when my girlfriend is out hiking with me.

Most likely, I’ll be using my Spinnshelter for most of my trips this coming summer (I plan to do a 10 day loop here in Pennsylvania, the SHT in Minnesota, and the Wonderland trail in Washington), and I imagine it will suit me well without a bivy. For now, maybe I’ll just experiment with my SilPoncho tarp while I’m close to home….on weekend trips…

Thanks again for your help Paul,

Dave:)

[paul johnson]

David, sounds like you’re thinking this through pretty well. Just one point on using the 2oz OR SpringRing Bug headnet: ok…open tarp…SpringRingBugHeadnet…85-88 deg nighttime temp (or even lower) with 70+ % RH (even 90%+ RH)…40 deg quilt…you’re not gonna’ stay under it all night…you’ll need to expose some body with base layer…maybe even some flesh…so…

…stick a mouth part in him gals…this one’s ripe for the suckin’. Hey in those temps your capillaries will even be dilated to promote some heat loss. The skeeters will have no problem making a feast…you’re a veritable smorgasbord!!

You might get by with this if you slather on an 8hr bug repellent on your flesh and spray some on your clothing. DrJ swears by permethrin impregnated clothing. He’s still walking around to Post about such, so what I learned years ago in class must be wrong – viz. Permethrins are nasty stuff and should avoid skin contact and inhalation of vapors. Actually, some people react very badly to it; others, like DrJ, seem to tolerate it very well. IIRC, it targets production of neurotransmitters at nerve synapses, inhibiting them – so it acts like a low-level nerve agent – “Great Shades of Sarin!!!” And that’s precisely how it works on both arthropod and mammalian nervous systems – to varying degrees depending upon dosage and natural sensitivity to it. Some people actually have experienced nerve system related symptoms, such as inability to swallow being one from a sensitivity to permethrins.

Keep in mind that there is diff. b/t a permethrin product intended for use as a sprayed insecticide (strong concentration probably) and a product that is used on human skin – i think some anti-Lice shampoos used on children and adults to eradicate an infestation of Pediculus humanis capitis (the common head louse) contain permethrins. Concentration is the issue, unless one has a sensitivity to it, then even a lo. conc. is too much.

I believe, i could be mistaken, but, i think marigold and/or chrysanthemums plants/flowers produce a related compound naturally.

Here’s some links on Permethrin:

link 1
link 2
link 3
link 4
link 5
link 6
link 7
link 8

I didn’t take the time to read them (only “Google-d” them), so I don’t know what they’ll say. Hope they prove helpful.

BTW, ExOfficio makes “BUZZ-Off” clothing impregnated with something – i don’t know what the chem. is. Also, campmor.com makes bugnet hooded tops and bottoms. The problem with these might be: how do you keep ALL of the netting from contacting skin? Might work better over a thin base layer? Anyone have any experience with this?

Enjoy your treks. Wish I could get 10d straight off from work.

[Ryan Faulkner]

thanks for all those links pj.

you might also want to check out the mini bull design bug bag. it is 3.2oz and is big enough to cover your entire body instead of just your torso.

and what I do if I am really having a problem with my net against my face is just wear a base ball cap.

[paul johnson]

Ryan, same here – ballcap to hold netting off of face when I’m sleeping in some bivies (those w/o a wire/hoop/pole overhead/face. Good suggestion on Tinny’s bugBag. One question: can it be tied up in some fashion to hold it up in fashion similar to the GG bugNet or the Equinox Mantis?

[David Patterson]

Paul,

Thanks for all of the really great info on Permethrin, but I decided a long time ago to stay away from it, after looking into it myself. You more or less summed up my thinking at the time of research, and it just doesnt seem worth the risk to me. You’re right though….how do I solve the skeeter problem…hmmm…hmm….if only mylar blankets weren’t so noisy!

Thanks,

Dave:)

[David Patterson]

I’m curious about that netting as well Ryan, and my typical headwear does include a nylon baseball cap. so that would work as well ‘in addition to’ my springring headnet if needed. I’m still thinking about the GG bugnet as well….and I think it might be sufficient. I have a difficult time sleeing without a covering of some sort, and even in the warmest conditions I imagine I would have the quilt draped over me at least to my waist….not to mention that I dont neccessarily have to insulate my bottoms in warmer temperatures.

Thanks again

Dave:)

[Charles Strusz]

Look, I know this is a subject that’s likely to set off a flame war, so I’ll just say this: yes, permethrin is a carcinogen. It is also COMPLETELY INACTIVATED by the oils on your skin. Don’t take me word for it; google it and read the various studies/papers/reports for yourself. That is all.

[paul johnson]

Look, I’m neither for or against it. Don’t have an opinion yet, nor an agenda. However, the facts are:

1. Is it “completely inactivated” (de-emphasis mine) in individuals with a hyper-sensitivity to it?

2. No skin oils in bronchials right. Well known inhaling it can cause problems, especially among asthmatics.

3. Yet, so gentle even a child can use it to de-louse. Though cases of contact dermatitis are known to occur. Not everyone reacts the same.

4. Like the idea of Googling… Googled “Permethrins” and found a number of hits – some for topical products; others about the health hazards. Now, some of the hits referred to laboratory experiments, mainly on rodents, but also on dogs. I always take these lab studies with a grain of salt, since some of them feed the chemical to the lab rodents, or dose it at very high levels. Don’t think any hiker is gonna’ drink Permethrin products. However, dogs showed some undesirable side effects. Now dogs share ~94% of their genetic material in common with humans. Any Doctor of Veterinary Medicine will tell you that many drugs we take were approved and first used on dogs due to some basic similarities in physiology.

So, here is an excerpt from just one “hit”. It doesn’t tell the whole story and inhalation is certainly different than topical application. Every Permethrin insecticide I’ve ever smelled was aromatic – if it makes it to the nose, there’s a good chance that it makes it into the lungs. Sounds like there must be some actual research behind statements like in this excerpt:

“… Permethrin was mutagenic (damaging to genetic material) in three tests with human cell cultures, one with hamster cells, and one with fruit fly larvae. In cultures of human lymphocytes (white blood cells), permethrin exposure caused an increase in chromosome aberrations, chromosome fragments, and DNA lesions….”.

Now that don’t sound good!!!

Maybe oils deactivate it, but just don’t inhale while applying it.

5. Issues are concentration and exposure. Best to minimize both.

6. Here’s a Pharmaceutical precaution regarding topical Permethrin cremes and shampoos:

“What side effects can this medication cause?

Although side effects from permethrin are not common, they can occur. Tell your doctor if any of these symptoms are severe or do not go away:

* skin irritation
* rash
* redness
* swelling”

Sounds like not everyone’s skin oils “COMPLETELY DEACTIVATE” permethrins. FDA does NOT require precautions about undesireable side effects to be listed unless they are exhibited by at least a very small percentage of study participants.

Bottom Line:
For me, the jury is not back with a verdict on this one. It’s not toxic enough so that it can’t be used in a human de-lousing shampoo, yet known side-effects , are known to occur, both when inhaled and when applied topically.

Now, it certainly could be that some permethrin is deactivated by skin oils – I don’t know; guess I didn’t spend enough time reading the Googled “hits”. Denying that there are absolutely no risks since skin oils “COMPLETELY DEACTIVATE” permethrins is simply telling ourselves a fable to alleviate worry. The facts don’t back it up. However, there are many more toxic chemicals we can come into contact with or inhale – some regularly. As in most chemical reactions, there is a limiting reagent. Can we be sure that we are producing sufficient oil to deactivate all of the permethrin. The concept of limiting reagents is basic chemistry. This brings to mind another quesiton, if it’s deactivated, does it still work to repel the skeeters? I don’t know since I don’t know the chemistry involved, but I wouldn’t think so. Permethrin has a modus operandi based upon its chemistry. If body oils “COMPLETELY DEACTIVATE” it, then it longer demonstrates that modus operandi since it has been chemically changed. This being the case, how does it still work? Answer, probably is, that it wouldn’t, hence some must be left unchanged inorder to work, or at least converted to a related compound that still demonstrates the toxic effect – just reasoning “out loud”, so to speak, here.

To each their own. Hike your own hike.

[Charles Strusz]

Re: “Denying that there are absolutely no risks”

Sorry if I left that impression – my post was terse. It *is* a carcinogen, and a powerful one at that. Huffing it would be very bad, as would be applying it via an aerosol outdoors while standing downwind. and taking deep breaths. For someone that can exercise a modicum of caution…

Wearing dried articles of clothing that have been treated with it is another story entirely.

Let’s consider the alternatives: DDT (which IS absorbed by the skin), Rocky Mountain Spotted fever, West Nile, Lyme’s, etc; not saying any pesticide is for everyone at all times, but for some of us the alternatives are not pretty.

[Charles Strusz]

“If body oils “COMPLETELY DEACTIVATE” it, then it longer demonstrates that modus operandi since it has been chemically changed. This being the case, how does it still work? Answer, probably is, that it wouldn’t, hence some must be left unchanged inorder to work, or at least converted to a related compound that still demonstrates the toxic effect – just reasoning “out loud”, so to speak, here.”

Paul – you are absolutely right here. This is why permethrin is applied to clothing, and not skin; since skin olis deactivate it, it is, as you say, completely useless this way. If you need to protect bare skin from insects, this stuff won’t do it.

[paul johnson]

Charles, clothing vs. skin – right you are. Poor reasoning on my part; lack of attention to detail. Good catch, thanks for pointing it out.

Some questions (not loaded questions, I simply don’t know how users of permethrin treated clothing, like yourself and DrJ, use it):

So, it’s not applied to a base layer? Is that right?

What about summer time (90+ deg F)? I only wear a base layer and now the treated base layer would be in contact with my skin? Is this a problem – either parital deactivation rendering it less potent or possible low-level toxicity effects? What your thought on treating a base layer?

The products that I looked at were aerosol treatments. Do you spray those (outside) on a calm day; just hold your breath; or stand upwind? Do you use a wash-in & then run the washer through another cycle or two (three?) without clothes to remove traces of the chemical?

Many thanks for taking the time to reply and educating me.

[Charles Strusz]

“So, it’s not applied to a base layer? Is that right?”

Correct. It is applied only to outermost shell.

“What about summer time (90+ deg F)? I only wear a base layer and now the treated base layer would be in contact with my skin? Is this a problem – either
parital deactivation rendering it less potent or possible low-level toxicity effects? What your thought on treating a base layer?”

Everything I’ve read everywhere tells me that permethrin quikly bonds to fabrics and does not bond at all to skin; this is further evidenced (at least, the ‘bonding to fabric’ bit) by the fact that permethrin-treated clothing can actually be washed serveral times and still remain effective (also, the treatments last weeks, with or without washing). In the hot months (when, let’s face it, this stuff is most-needed), I directly treat my t-shirts and pants/shorts (but not boxers!), and wear the dry stuff next to my skin; I then either apply the oft-hated (with good reason) DEET to exposed skin, or just suck it up and wear some light long sleves/pants (DEET really does scare me; permethrin does not).

“The products that I looked at were aerosol treatments. Do you spray those (outside) on a calm day; just hold your breath; or stand upwind?”

All of the above, if possible, in addition to wearing a facemask and goggles; I completely trust permethrin when bonded to dried clothing (and I AM highly suspicious of man-made chemicals, even those derived from natural products), but inahling it is NOT something I want to do. Sealed in a plactic/ziplock bag when not in use, I’ve noticed that my permethrin-treated garments are effective for about a month.

“Do you use a wash-in & then run the washer through another cycle or two (three?) without clothes to remove traces of the chemical?”

Nope – I’ve never used a wash-in (didn’t even know such a thing existed). Some people buy large bottles of the stuff and simply dunk their clothes in a watered-down mixture of it, then let it dry outside. Studies I’ve read indicate that it’s not readily leached into watertables or soil, but environmental concerns are key with me, so if going this route, I’d make sure to let dry over something to catch the drippage (some painter’s plastic), which could then be dumped back into the storage unit.

Long story short: please forgive my unforgivable use of an emphasized “COMPLETELY DEATIVATED”. This was hyperbole, and is alomst certainly wrong; it’s unreasonable ot think that my hand could eventually render inert a bucketful of the stuff if I held my hand in it long enough, and I wouldn’t want to pour a bottle of it on me (though, apparantly it’s done to treat lice), but once it’s bonded and dried on fabric, I am confident that any minute amounts that MIGHT be rubbed off onto my skin either a) won’t stay there, or b) will become inactivated before it can do any damange. I’m guessing, if used properly, it’s less dangerous than that Splenda stuff, or living in a house with a WiFi network, cordless phone, and microwave oven.

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