Selling Lightweight: How Retailers Can Help Your Pack Weight

[CW]

Nick,

Funny you mention REI. This article actually prompted me to see what I could put together at REI that would be as light as possible while maintaining the comfort a traditional backpacker might want (full inflatable pad, double-wall tent, etc). I haven't finished yet but in case anyone is interested here's what I have so far:

REI Gear Spreadsheet

Nate,

That video is of Winton Porter who runs Mountain Crossings at Neel's Gap on the AT. He's a good guy and most of the staff are previous thru-hikers but I think they tend to refit people more on the light side than UL even though they do stock some UL gear like ULA packs and SMD tents. You should hear some of the stuff they've sent home for people like scuba gear, cast iron frying pans, weeks worth of canned beans and franks, etc. What makes the stuff even more ridiculous is the shop is the first you hit after you leave Springer (30-40 miles in). People were going to carry that stuff to Maine.

[Brad Groves]

SCUBA gear??! Geez, I felt sheepish last time I brought my Ti French press… I'm just trying to imagine that night at the house, packing up for the AT: "Hmmm, you know, I might really be able to use some flippers out there. They can pull double duty as camp shoes."

[Brad Groves]

Robert, I can put together some kind of sample price list for you. We charge MSRP for everything; Scouts get 20% off MSRP. I would caution you that the equipment I gathered for this launching point won't work for everybody; your needs and troop needs might be different. For example, the list is set up for solo travel, so I have a solo tent, mini stove, solo pot… Going with a bigger group you'd want bigger tents, split the weight up between multiple people. If you used something like a Copper Spur 3, for example, you could squeeze three people into a 4.25# tent; split the 4.25# roughly 3 ways, and each person carries 1.4 pounds for shelter, instead of the 2 to 2.5 pounds of a solo shelter.

We can work out some specifics for you and your troop needs, but I'd prefer to handle that within the PM system instead of the forums (I didn't intend for the article to be any kind of advertising, and don't want it to seem that way, ya know?) Since you don't have email set up yet, please feel free to contact me via my email. Thanks!

Brad

[CW]

Brad-

If I recall correctly the guy thought he would need it for the water crossings on the Northern section of the AT. Guess he wasn't informed about maildrops.

[Bruce Tolley]

I do not understand all this trashing of outdoor retailers. Most the salespeople at my local REI are part timers. If you need real help at an REI, go in a work day when the professional staff is on duty. With careful shopping,an experienced backpacker who wants to go ligher can outfit himself with a lightweight kit at REI.

I too buy from MLD, GG, Oware, ULA etc but I also occasionally shop at REI and when on the East Coast, EMS. Every year the mainstream pack makers and tent makers come out with lighter gear, and I think we should give thanks to the innovation and examples that the cottage UL industry provides to the mainstream manufacturers.

[GARY HEBERT]

A few points

1)I think we've all learned the hard way, it's hard to "convince" people with a quick sell (There's nothing like camping with somebody to show them it really CAN work. It's definitely a process – we all slowly convert and continue to tweak our gear)

2)Most gear stores, though well intentioned, have a conflicting agenda with UL hiking: selling STUFF – lots of it – is what matters. That's how they make $$$. UL hikers dont need much and rarely buy more "stuff". [Though even now its hard to resist all those "little" items that just seem like you need them. And it seems like they hardly weigh anything. ha ha]

3)Perhaps a video showing an actual camp setup in the store could help. (Or setup the actual camp.)

4)Most of what UL hikers do is NOT buy and NOT bring all that stuff you don't really need- but that's the hardest lesson to get across

5)I LOVE "Walmart" or other El Cheapo Gear Lists that I find online, showing how the Newbie really CAN go pretty light with relatively cheap stuff. THEN comes the soft "upsell" – spend a little more $$$ here and there and travel even lighter. (We all know the last ounces are the hardest to lose.) Getting Potential Converts down to the FEWEST basic items is at least half the battle. Thus Brad's approach to displaying just the basics in lightER stuff but not the LightEST makes a lot of sense.

6)Being a traditional boy scout for years (carrying backup gear for the backup gear) has made my still ongoing conversion even sweeter [where were you guys 25 years ago??!!]

Thus my advice to newbies: RESIST buying ANYTHING until you read read read
and join the UL Following

"FedEx"

[Brett Tucker]

To an extent, the brick-and-mortar retail shop may be incurably dysfunctional when it comes to UL offerings and advice, for a number of reasons:

– Staff increasingly unknowledgeable because they don't actually do a lot of backpacking. It's difficult to advocate out of the box for that which you're both ignorant about and disinterested in.
– Core customer base (like the staff) consisting primarily of day hikers, car and frontcountry campers, recreational paddler and climbers, and other done-in-a-day activities where packweight and miles of walking aren't a major focus driving demand.
– Reduced focus on a holistic approach to outfitting the customer due to fewer and fewer eager newbie backpackers showing up to be outfitted (and more of the above types of customers instead). And it's the holistic approach to gear accumulation and synergy that makes the benefits of UL prima facia obvious.
– Internet-educated newbie and veteran backpackers alike, catered to be a panacea-style website such as BPL, and able to purchase virtually everything they need online, who are successfully transitioning to UL while bypassing the traditional brick-and-mortar experience. Ie, we were always a niche market, and the internet with its global reach tends to fare better with niche markets than an actual storefront ever could.

The outfitter shop down the street increasingly makes less sense to us as we make less sense to them. From a certain perspective nothing may in fact be broken here, and therefore no fixing may be required. Unless perhaps the shops still hold enough sway over manufacturers to dictate (ie, dumb down) product lines to the detriment of UL. Or if perhaps UL as a missionary style enlightened movement still senses that the corner shop is an important recruitment center for bringing more UL/Wilderness/LNT advocates into the fold (since UL means greater enjoyment and perhaps greater exploration and kinship with nature).

[Unknown abc]

A dedicated UL store! OMG where is it?!!!

[Matt Lutz]

Boozer's gear closet. Ben Tang's, too.

[Rod Lawlor]

I find both his prices and his service are excellent, and the range is hard to beat!!

[Brian UL]

I never thought of sales people as being helpful. Im one of those people who hates salesmen. I avoid anywhere with aggressive salesman and always use the same line in any store like REI -"just browsing thanks". I always assume the sales people are trying to make sales not help. Thats why I always educate myself then go to the store. The first time I remember asking for advice and help at REI it was a bad experience and just confirmed my attitude twords sales people. I remember I just came back from my first real backpacking trip, solo 5 days in the Pemi wilderness with a 60 Lb pack. I did all the usual newbie mistakes but I had done some homework it just didn't help.
So I went to REI determined to lighten my pack because it was obvious it was too heavy. I had one problem though- my 20 deg synthetic was huge I was stuck with a big pack as long as I had it but everyone told me it wasn't safe to use down in New England and I needed a 20 deg bag. The old sales man treated me like I was an idiot. I wanted to know if I should get a smaller bag or pack but didn't know how it was possible, he seemed to hold me in contempt and I just started to ignore him. Then I saw a lone Golite pack made of silnyon the "speed" I believe and I was fascinated by it because it was so small and light- everything I wanted but was being told I couldn't shouldn't have. When the sales man saw me admiring it he said "thats not for you, thats for people with more experience" at that moment I realized that I was going to buy a new bag that would fit in a pack like that. I did my research and ended up with a GG Ozone from ebay and went back to REI determined to find an affordable compressible down bag. This time though a younger salesman actually had some helpfull things to say and he recommended a polarguard 30 deg bag that compressed down well and was affordable. So I was already kind light by my second trip.
But then 2 things took it to the next level. First was Backpacking Mags Aug 2003 article" Battle of the Flyweights" there was real advice and reviews of ULA, Lw gear, Kiskil outdoors, golite, GVP, GG virga, Nunatak, feathered freinds ect. it was eye opening. Then I read Jardines book and suddenly my 30 lbs of gear seemed ridiculous. Then I found this place and started obsessing over weight until I realized every decreasing returns and sorted out my priorities. Now I'm pretty satisfied as long as I'm 10 lbs or less and these days its easy to do even with gear off the shelf at REI.

[Joe Clement]

Haven't seen a good Boozer sale for a while, hope he's out hiking……

[Tom Clark]

Brian Vargo has a physical store in north-central PA. I plan to stop in the next time I'm driving across I-80. You can check it out on his website.

http://www.vargooutdoors.com/

[Brad Groves]

Brett, you expressed a very powerful distaste for retail shops that, in fairness, I think was at times close-minded and expressed at the exclusion of many realities.

I think you made several assumptions that were misrepresented. (Forgive me, my philosophy and logic classes have been deeply ingrained!) In short, you feel brick and mortars (B & Ms) are incurably dysfunctional, their staff is ignorant and doesn't backpack, and their customers are ignorant because all they do is car camp and day hike. Further, you make the logical leaps that there's less holistic focus on outfitting, that shops are inherently unable to cater to UL, and that all UL is anathema to brick and mortar shops. When you broach the idea that perhaps shops could sway companies to lighten up gear, you express it as "dumbing down" gear to the detriment of UL.

Let's take a look at some of these ideas. First, I'd argue that shops and UL can easily go hand-in-hand. Instead of an increasing distance between UL and B & Ms, I'd say the two are drawing closer together. UL is becoming more, not less, mainstream. UL is making more sense to more people. The industry is growing in that direction. If products are made lighter, I'd say it's probably more the KISS method than "dumbing down." I've already mentioned the massive drag online shopping has had on B & Ms; if you buy things online, how can you expect shops to be overflowing with gear and options? Further, how can you expect them to hire the best staff when they don't have the cash flow to do it?You're supporting businesses other than theirs. If you make interested requests, many shops will notice trends and start stocking in response to those trends.

I also whole-heartedly disagree that there is an overall decline in newbie backpackers. I think there's at least as many new backpackers proportionately as there have been in recent years; I started working outdoor retail 14 years ago, so I do have some familiarity with the subject. Actually, I'd say there's more new backpackers coming into shops than there have been in recent years. I've spoken with 3 "newbies" just today, and lunch hour isn't even over! And sure, there are lifestyle shoppers at the stores. Always have been. But "real" end-users are still out there and coming in, too. I won't argue that some sales staff is woefully inadequate; however, I think there's a lot of really talented, really experienced sales staff out there. Especially in the mom and pop type shops. I think it's absurd to argue that the staff is increasingly unknowledgeable, ignorant and disinterested in our sport. Every experience I've had (in the shops I've worked in) has been quite the opposite. Now, sometimes you get people newly interested in the sport who are learning the ropes, sure. But overall, many of your local shops are home to people who are passionate about their outdoor endeavors… you don't work in a shop like that for the pay! Much of the time the owner is working in that shop, and you know they're not there just because it seemed like an easy way to make a buck. Lastly, I don't get the comment about less focus on holistic outfitting, because I think that's probably on the rise, too–quite possibly because of increased public awareness of ultralight and lightweight backpacking.

My two cents…

EDIT: Just for grins I kept a tally of newbie backpackers today: 6 of them came in one day. That's 6 people new to backpacking; in one shift, I'd say that it's pretty indicative of a trend with growing interest. Incidentally, there were also 2 or 3 people who came in with specific interest in changing over from traditional to UL gear… And in the past week I've outfitted about 4 people with at least three each of their "big" things, ie tent, bag, pack, cookgear, pad… people working toward a whole-system approach.

Cheers, and peace-
Brad

[Franco Darioli]

Having worked in camera retail for 30 years in a street next to all of the major specialist outdoor shops here in Melbourne, I can tell yo that both kind of shops are staffed mostly by people that have as a hobby/part time work the trade they work in. By that I mean keen amateur or more often student or part time "pro" in my trade and keen outdoor sportsperson/part time guides/instructors for the camping shops. So in either case, most of the time you would be talking to someone that is using or is familiar with that stuff. The commonest problem now is not "uninformed" salespeople is customers coming in getting all of the info, playing with the goods and then buying on line.
And yes, it is a lot cheaper to run an Internet store than a specialist store in the City Center.
What some forget is that in both trades there are more goods available than ever, yet salespeople are supposed to know on a particular item more than we do after we have spent several hours researching that on the net.
The funny thing is that the shop that provably has the largest share of the market is not one of the above but the one that caters mostly for the new ones, occasional hikers and fashion victims. That one will employ anyone prepared to work on minimum wages.
How ?
Advertising, catalogues and promotions that the true specialists cannot afford.
Franco

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