KEN KNIGHT IS MISSING ON APPALACHIAN TRAIL IN VA

[Buck Nelson]

"And except for a few spots a GPS is as good as a paperweight on the AT (long green tunnel remember). You'd be better off carrying a book to read while awaiting rescue than a GPS."

The new high-sensitivity models work even in under a forest canopy and I would be surprised to find a place on the AT where they wouldn't get a position fix.

I think a GPS would be invaluable to someone that was truly lost and who knew how to operate it. I've used one many times to quickly sort things out. (Although I personally didn't carry one on the AT.) They are especially valuable in fog, clouds or darkness. A spare set of fresh batteries should be standard. Naturally, like any device they can fail. I had one fail last summer. I've also had at least two compasses fail during my lifetime (including one where the polarity had somehow gotten reversed so the North end of the needle pointed South!.) I've had maps fail, too, when I lost them!

[Robert Speik]

Hello Devon-

"It was my understanding that the search for Ken started when those not on the trail noticed that he missed a plane trip back to MI."

I believe some news reports confirm my comment. Check the string carefully.

"I maintain that they are unnecessary. They are unreliable in the sense that when the battery goes, it's useless, not that they are inaccurate in their readings."

I think John Shannon and Bruce Nelson have responded to this old canard. Fresh batteries can last 17 hours in use. You need not have your GPS on at all times. You can carry extra Lithium batteries. They work in your SPOT as well. They are better in cold weather too.

"I maintain that you will simply run out of battery power on trips longer than an overnighter if you keep it on. I also think that it's a poor substitute for a locator beacon if that's what you really want."

If your cell phone is out of tower range, turn it off for goodness sake. "Coupled with a GPS, a cell phone takes the search out of SAR"

"Maybe I'm wrong here. Does a good deal of SAR occur at night? Even if it does, it just seems like a superfluous item."

Yes, you are wrong, Devon. But, I suggest you not bother with the little two ounce bike strobe.

[Robert Speik]

Hello Jesse-
"It sounds like hiking with you would be as fun as joining the army."

I was an Army Officer and the troops loved me. I have been a popular hiking, backpacking and mountain climbing leader for more than 60 years.

If you were to hike with us, you would have fun and learn some new stuff too.

You seem uninformed on the use of the latest GPS receivers. Read the subsequent posts by John and Bruce.

[Robert Speik]

Hello Roger-
You might want to update Backpacking Light's evaluation of the SPOT. Recent reviews have been much more positive than your group report.

It is clear that the SPOT must be used correctly, often not done in early reviews. Note that even the latest GPS receivers must be used correctly to give maximum results.

Adventure racers have been very successful with the SPOT tracking, although it is the weakest of the four uses.

"You might also like to note that none of the BPL staff who participated in the field test wanted to keep any of the test units for free afterwards. Yep, we turned down free stuff!"

This comment is a little dismissive. There are thousands of happy users.

We like our SPOT units here in Oregon. I don't know about Australia's Outback.

This is your original statement:
"In our testing, in field conditions we believe likely to be encountered backpacking and hiking, the SPOT unit did not "deliver virtually every message," as the SPOT unit's literature claims. As such, we see the SPOT unit as an innovative system with a lot of promise, but with some glitches and room for improvement. We make no claims that the current SPOT unit and its supporting system is or is not dependable enough to deliver messages with sufficient reliability all times in the field conditions encountered by backpacker and hikers. That is a judgment call to be made by each prospective user."

[Roger Caffin]

> You might want to update Backpacking Light's evaluation of the SPOT. Recent reviews
> have been much more positive than your group report.
Yes, I have noticed that some organisations have posted glowing reviews of the SPOT. However, in many cases those reviews merely confirm what some of us have always said about 'desk reviews' based on marketing releases.

We stand by our evaluation, but we look forward to the release of a V2 correcting the limitations of V1.

Cheers

[Greg Mihalik]

Robert,
Regarding SPOT, as recently as November on a Grand Canyon Rim-to-Rim run (not by me) only 30 out of 198 tracking signals were successful and only 9 out of 33 OK signals were successful.

This was a BrightAngel/Tonto run, with a fairly large exposure to the sky.

[Devin Montgomery]

Hi Robert,

Looking at the news reports, they don't specify who actually called for the search and rescue, other than saying it was by "friends." This confirms that it's too early for people who weren't there to make broad assertions about what was or was not the case.

Other than that, I suspect that you and I have intractable differences about personal autonomy and responsibility, and it's fair to leave it at that. It's also clear than we hike in very different ways and have different criteria for the gear we carry.

I wish you the best in your travels.

[Lorraine Pace]

But who knew that being legally blind was a get out of jail free card? I stand by this. It is reckless and irresponsible for a legally blind person to set off into the wildnerness ALONE and a recipe for disaster. I think he's basically proved my point.

[Ron Hedlund]

Travis – check your math on item 4

2 acres or maybe 4???

[Ron Hedlund]

Travis, one acre = 43,560 square feet

your math equals four acres, not 2

295 feet on a side = close to 2 acres

Can't help it, I took surveying in college. :)

[Travis Leanna]

Thanks for checking my math. Yeah, originally I found the area of a square acre, which is 208 feet on all sides. Then I just doubled that, for a total of 416 squared, which equalls 173,056. D'OH!!! My bad. If I'm correct this time, two acres of land is a square with sides that measure 295 feet. Even smaller!!!

[Travis Leanna]

Ah, you beat me to it!

[Anonymous]

"Coupled with a GPS, a cell phone takes the search out of SAR"

In a lot of mountain ranges, a cell phone is useless more often than not, coupled with a GPS unit or otherwise. Not to be depended on to call in a rescue situation.

[Dan Cunningham]

Lorraine Pace = [not a nice person]

Sorry for the nasty word, it's just that nothing else fit. I've never made a personal attack here on BPL, but Lorraine's comment is out of line.

I understand if my comment gets censored by the mods (although there has been conversation about using douche to clean stinky bags, so really, it's not too far fetched).

[Jesse Glover]

Ok I didn't know that GPS technology had progressed so much. The last time I used one it didn't work at all unless we had a good line of sight.

But he had a GPS AND a cellphone the batteries were just dead. (dang iphone is just too much fun to play with)

[Travis Leanna]

Lorraine please explain your comment. I'm sure it was some sort of typo, right? RIGHT? I'm sure our criminal justice system has better things to do than prosecute people like Ken.

Dan, your comment made me laugh (though its not a funny matter) and you hit it on the head.

[Rick Cheehy]

Yep, Dan, that about sums it up.

[Sam Haraldson]

I took out the "nasty word" in Dan's post but I whole-heartedly agree with him.

[Charles Reneau]

I, for one, am impressed. Ken took his time, stayed calm, stayed put, got the resources he needed to survive quite a long time (water and firewood). I hope that I would remain that calm and intelligent in the same situation.

And for everyone who disagrees, try walking an AT mile in his shoes!

[Tony Beasley]

First of all I would like to say how glad I was to hear that Ken made it out safe and well, and I wish Ken all the best in the future and I hope he does many more walks.

On a thread on the Bushwalk Tasmania forum "Emergency Help Devices – EPIRB/PLB, Sat Phone, SPOT, etc [split]" an incident came to light where a Spot Messenger was used to alert the local authorities to evacuate a bushwalker in a remote part of the state of Tasmania with a broken leg. Considering the reliability of the Spot messenger has been brought up on this thread I thought this incident might be of some interest to this BPL thread, apparently in this incident the spot messenger worked very well.

The thread can be located at this URL http://bushwalk-tasmania.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1709 and the postings that mentions the above incident starts near the end of the first page.

Tony

[Ron Hedlund]

I was using a Garmin Colorado 400t GPS while searching for Ken. We were under some heavy cover on AT and on side trails. Never once did I even have a weak signal, let alone no signal. That thing is awesome. Great mapping software and good display. Just wish the coordinate numbers displayed in a larger font. Yes, battery life could be better. It improved with the software update last year.

Re: the iphone. I had one along as well. The battery life sucks. Did have occasional reception, but very sparse. None near where Ken was found. But it has an airplane feature that improves battery life by eliminating the search mode for a signal when you are out of range. there are also battery boosters available (essentially an external spare battery).

Many of these techno items (GPS) are less meaningful in a limited sight capability setting.

[Ryan Jordan]

@papamuskrat et al.,

We had a 400t in our group as well, and we had no problems under heavy cover. We were using it to track our sweep searches. Pretty cool, being able to have a high level of confidence that we were covering densely vegetated areas thoroughly by looking at the GPS tracks.

We had awful luck communicating with an iPhone, even up on the divide. I had a Verizon phone (Blackberry) and we'd use that to communicate to base via SMS when we couldn't reach it by radio. It was very reliable. We were also able to exchange photos (at one point we were emailed a photo of the sole pattern of one of Ken's possible boots during a tracking task).

[P. P.]

Since this thread has branched out a bit, I'm going to jump in with a couple of thoughts. {I have so few ;-)}
It looks like I'm going to have to get a new GPS if the 400t is performing that well in dense cover. I only found one review on BPL. Any others out there?

I was thinking about comments some made about Ken being financially responsible for his rescue. I know in some places and in some circumstances this happens.
I was in a nasty auto accident in the middle of the night once upon a time but had the 'good fortune' to crash across from a fire station. My car had caught fire after the crash and I was unconscious. I would have died before help arrived had rescue not been so close. They heard me crash.
They were not volunteers, but paid firefighters. They saved my life. They did not present a bill, even though I was at fault for driving while tired and falling asleep at the wheel. I have been giving a donation to firefighters every year since.
I carry a PLB with built-in GPS with me on all hikes. I am often in areas where the trails are overgrown or non-existent. If something happens, I want to make it as easy as possible to find my location. That helps me AND my rescuers. Yes, it is HEAVY, really heavy, but worth it for my family's greater peace of mind and, to a degree, mine.

I've been out there for over 40 years and I like to think that experience might help keep me safe but you just never know…………..

[Robert Speik]

Hello Greg-
You posted:
"Regarding SPOT, as recently as November on a Grand Canyon Rim-to-Rim run (not by me), only 30 out of 198 tracking signals were successful and only 9 out of 33 OK signals were successful. This was a Bright Angel/Tonto run, with a fairly large exposure to the sky."

Greg, the following is from one of 82 comments published on the REI website, under SPOT "reader reviews".

"I backpack the Grand Canyon twice a year, and recently read about a local hiker who injured his ankle in the Canyon and was successfully evacuated by helicopter in two hours after using his SPOT (his companions hiked up to a ridge before activating it)." While this respondent did not like his SPOT for use in the Grand Canyon, 55 of 82 user reviews were positive.

Greg, since the example of SPOT non-performance you noted was from a running race in the Grand Canyon, please note that it is very unlikely enough time was used to send any of the messages. It is very likely that the SPOT was used incorrectly

The following is how the SPOT can be used effectively. Remember, if you are stranded, Greg, you may have lots of time to use it properly. You are not in a race.

Greg and others, the following might be helpful:

HOW TO USE THE SPOT CORRECTLY:
Perhaps it is not obvious on the SPOT website or in the booklet packed with the device, but SPOT MUST BE LYING ON ITS BACK WITH THE LABEL UP, FOR A FEW MINUTES, IN ORDER TO HAVE MAXIMUM CONTACT WITH THE GPS SATELLITES AND THE COMMUNICATIONS SATELLITES.

People standing around the unit, hooking it on your belt or placing it standing upright next to a boulder may also block the line of site of the electronic signal. This is not a "design fault".

GPS receivers, for best results, must be standing up straight with the the users hand clear of the top and at the lower part of the unit and with no people hovering over and around it in order to see what is going on.

To re-state it, SPOT is best at connecting with the DOD GPS satellites and to the satellite phone communications satellites when it is comfortable lying on its back for a few minutes with the label up. The antenna needs to see the entire sky and not just half or less off to one side. This is kind of explained in the booklet packed with the unit. I have checked this information with SPOT Customer Service and I have heard this explained by a SPOT distributor. Clip the SPOT to the top of your summer day pack or take a rest and give it too, a chance to get comfortable on its back on a rock.

My wife and I are Federally licensed General Class Ham Radio Operators and we have studied the way "antennas" work. They are directional, and that is why the GPS and the SPOT must be oriented correctly. This is not a design fault. I agree with some that the SPOT User Guide should be more clear. I agree that the nice big belt clip should be removed by the operator. Place the SPOT in the top pocket of your day pack (yes, on top of the extra hat, gloves and ClifBars). Or turn it on when you stop for lunch, camp or a 15 minute break.

Some folks expressed concern because their Spot did not report their possition 100 percent of the time. I will bet their SPOTS were clipped on belt or pack and not HAPPY.

One person described how he got a good contact when he laid the SPOT (flat) on the hood of his car. And another described how his balky unit was oriented: . . ."keep spot upright . . . "

THE BASIC IMPROVEMENT OF SPOT OVER LAND PLBs:
An important improvement of SPOT over PLBs is its ability to "real-life test" the communication system where the user actually hikes, hunts, sleds, climbs and wanders. Try it out in slot canyons, under heavy wet tree cover, in a snow storm, on the PCT or the AT, where ever you personally play. If the user programmed message "Hello, I am exactly here and I am having fun" gets through, so will the message "911 Rescue Services are on the way, but don't worry Honey" on another less happy day.

The traditional PLB cannot be tested for whether the signal has actually been sent and received without triggering a Search. PLB users can be fined big bucks for sending a false alarm.
–trad_guy

[Robert Speik]

Hello Ron, Ryan and PP-
The Garmin line of personal GPS receivers seems to have cornered the market. I use only Garmin GPS receivers, so I am a fan, too.

The least expensive new Garmin is the eTrex H, available everywhere for about $100. The only step up I suggest is the eTrex Venture HC, often available for about $175.

The Venture HC has the latest "H" antenna system so it provides the same speed and accuracy as all the many more expensive new Garmin models. It is packaged with a USB cable to your computer; the eTrex H does not come with a USB cable. I actually like the color screen ;-))

Why pay more for the same fast accurate UTM NAD 27 coordinates? Use it with a USGS Quad topo map or equal (1:24,000 with the UTM grid and elevation lines at 20 to 40 feet).

For long haul truckers: buy trail map trip ticks with waypoints in UTM coordinates and print your own 8.5 by 11 maps to your resupply points off the trail.

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