Black Diamond First Light

[Donald Browning]

I camped in the Big Frog Mountain in Tennessee this Saturday with my new, freshly seam sealed First Light. The weather was challanging with average of 45F, wind and constant light rain and heavy fog. My First Light did not leak, but condensation way heavy. My WM Caribou stayed dry and I stayed warm.
Question is, is there a tent with better performance in this kind of weather, or would any tent have gotten lots of condensation. As my question might imply I don’t camp that much, although I did spend several nights in my TNF Mountain 25 in pouring rain without any appreciable condensation a few years ago, it’s just that with all the bells and whistles, the Mountain 25 weights over 8lbs.
Don

[John Chan]

Sounds like you were in the “perfect storm” when it comes to condensation conditions. I would think that with an epic tent if you can’t stave off the condensation then no other free-stander would suffice.

Perhaps the constant rain wet out the epic which in turn did not allow moisture out. In that case, maybe you could think about investing in a simple square spinnaker tarp to augment your tent. Sort of like a fly… but one that you can pitch high above the tent to prevent wetting out from constant drizzle. Shouldn’t add more than 5-7 oz to your entire system and gives you the flexibility of using the tarp with tent, or tent and tarp cooking/gathering area.

Not to advertise, but I’m sure Ron Bell @ Mountain Laurel Designs could whip up something like that… only you’ll have to be patient… (like 8 weeks patient).

My 2 cents,

[Franco Darioli]

Don, did you have both vents open ?

[Anonymous]

I also have the BD Firstlight and have used it both in summer and winter. I’d say it is less condensation prone than most tents, certainly in the single skin category. Keeping the vents open a bit is always important (on all tents) to prevent condensation, but in those circumstantions you describe, it will be tough anyway. In that kind of weather I like to place half a dozen tea-candles in my ti-pot and place it in the middle of the tent. I can’t really prove it, but it feels like the extra heat makes the tent a bit dryer on the inside.

Links to pictures of winter use, note that vents are open despite -15 Celcius:

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/7391/dsc001855sy.jpg
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/6214/dsc001863bt.jpg

//Moe

[Scott Peterson]

Hmmm. You place lighted candles inside your tent??? Really? That seems like smoking in bed. I can’t imagine that any one nylon tent is more flammable than another, but isn’t this fabric now off the market because of it’s inability to meet flammability standards?

[paul johnson]

Scott, just curious as I don’t really keep up on some things. When you say “off the market” are you really referring to Epic by Nextec fabric or are you thinking of eVENT fabric?

[Moe Joe]

yes. teacandles in the bottot of a pot isnt much of a risk, imo. to put them out, put on the lid. when i use my topgas-stove in the bd firstlight, i am very careful, much greater risk. /Moe

[Scott Peterson]

I had read somewhere else on this board that one of the fabrics…and I assumed it was the siliconized nylon that comprises the majority of the tent, was no longer being sold to tent manufacturers. An individual at BD said today though that he was unaware of any material sourcing issues and claimed they were making 2 NEW versions of UL tents out of the same fabric for 2006. They still will not ship to states where the fabric is outlawed for tents.

As far as flames in the tent…I would probably not personally do anything with flames in the tent….Unless it was a situation where it was warranted. I have yet to use the tent in humid conditions…but no amount of respiration/perspiration in the tent during dry conditions has resulted in any moisture in the tent. It seems to be the best moisture “moving” tent I have used.

[paul johnson]

Scott, Many thanks for the clarification. I may have missed something in these Forums on Epic also falling by the wayside.. However, several times over the last 12-18 mos. eVENT fabric was discussed. GE has purchased the rights to eVENT and won’t allow it to be used any longer in shelter that one can reasonably cook in. This means that it still can be used in both rain gear and bivies. However, even if it is eVENT that you were thinking of, it makes sense that Mfr’s wouldn’t want to sell a tent made of any material outlawed in a particular state. Thanks again.

[Franco Darioli]

Scott only the floor of the BD Firstlight/Lighthouse is made of silnylon, the fly is Epic, a very different fabric.

[Scott Peterson]

I am confused. I recognize the different names in play. Silnylon, Epic, and eVent. I think I may have misunderstood the warranty repair guy at BD, who himself may have been confused. When I mentioned the whole, not going to be able to sell the fabric anymore, nothing clicked with him. He knows I have a small hole on top of the tent…and stated that “iron on patches will not stick to the siliconized nylon threads, therefore we would have to sew a patch on.”

My question: How is eVent different than Epic? And if eVent is the “culprit” in question with GE, why is Epic still not legal to sell in some states in the form of a tent??? Something does not jive.

Thanks for any more enlightened explainations.

[Scott Peterson]

It seems eVent is a laminent? While Epic is a fabric….and eVent is not involved with any tents that BD makes? This seems logical, and I think I got my wires crossed with all the different outlawing going on between various fire loving fabrics AND laminents.

[paul johnson]

Scott, Just a quick note. I’m not a real knowledgeable materials guy. If no one more knowledgeable (“more know.” = that’s just about every regular participant in these Forums) responds to you in a day or two, I’ll reply back with my $0.02 on Epic and eVENT. I’ll also try to find some links about these fabrics. My guess is that two or three really sharp guys will respond within 12hrs or so. I’m not going to touch the legal aspects though. I’ll leave that for a backpacking attorney.

[paul johnson]

Scott, ignore my prev. post. Ours crossed in the “ether”. Since you’ve posted back, I’ll go ahead and give a short reply. You’re nearly correct as far as you’ve gone with details.

My understanding, which may not be precisely correct, is that eVENT is 3rd generation PTFE (i think it’s an ePTFE, but i’m not sure). GoreTex was the first. It has some unique properties compared to GTX.

Epic is not merely fabric, but an encapsulated fabric. Each thread is encapsulated and then woven into the fabric and is highly water resistant but not waterproof according to Nextec the Mfr. of Epic fabric.

You’re, to the best of my knowledge, correct. BD does not use eVENT. BD bought Bibler and Bibler has their own version of PTFE called ToddTex. It’s similar to GTX. BD uses Epic for its “ultralight” tents and bivies, and the Bibler line of shelters uses ToddTex.

[Scott Peterson]

It seems eVent is a laminent? While Epic is a fabric….and eVent is not involved with any tents that BD makes? This seems logical, and I think I got my wires crossed with all the different outlawing going on between various fire loving fabrics AND laminents.

[Curt Peterson]

“Epic is not merely fabric, but an encapsulated fabric. Each thread is encapsulated and then woven into the fabric and is highly water resistant but not waterproof according to Nextec the Mfr. of Epic fabric.”

It’s actually encapsulated after it’s woven as far as I understand. Essentially “naked” nylon (or other fabric – even cotton can be done) that is put in a silicon bath and some process involving electric current or something like that bonds the silicon to the fibers on a molecular level. Result is the same as you note, however: each fiber is sheathed in silicon. Neat stuff.

[paul johnson]

Curt is absolutely right about it being encapsulated after weaving. Thanks Curt.

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