BPL LW Pack 2009

[Carol Corbridge]

1. No Hydration Sleeve

2. Keep the shoulder strap pockets

3. Keep all three outside mesh pockets

4. Prefer a flap, partly because it can help move the weight toward the body when cinched down.

Now the big questions: fit.

5. long torsos where the hip belt crosses your iliac crest

6. Provide "load lifter straps"

[Robert Bryant]

1. no

2. maybe, what can you fit in it

3. keep all mesh pockets. personally I like a beaver tail for the middle. a beaver tail with a outside mesh pocket would be great. i got to learn how to sew one of these days

4. either way

5. iliac crest? you use your tounge prettier than a twenty dollar…nevermind

6. the "load lifter straps"

also make the belt pockets bigger, on the huge side maybe. big enough for camera, maps, lunch. it looks like you can only fit a couple of snickers bars in them. i don't like taking my pack off for little things.

[Joe Clement]

Your business plan really isn't any of my business, but is this going to fill a niche that doesn't exist, or be cheaper than existing products? It just seems to me like the UL pack market is pretty saturated.

[David J. Sailer]

This looks like more of the same. There are plenty of ordinary packs already being sold.

I'd like to see a series of innovative designs for various uses coming out of the community. These could be shared as plans, for anyone to use. Need production? Sell by subscription as demand warrants. This might not be profitable in itself but might have more value to the backpacking world.

I have or have had packs with elasticized mesh, expansion collars, extra pockets and pouches, zippers, daisy chains, tool loops, a fixed volume, and doodads everywhere. Having made my own packs for a few years, I've found another direction.

While I'm still a lousy sewer, what I'm making now is both practical and clean, focusing on utility and adjustability. If I had plans I'd share them, but maybe that can come later. And it's possible that what I like is uninteresting to everyone else, but it does work.

My packs vary in volume as consumables are used while remaining tight, sleek, and compact. One pack serves equally well for both short and long trips. I don't have tool loops or crampon hangers or iPod pockets or internal bladders with sucking tubes because I don't want them.

Better to have different designs for different uses, I think. I backpack and don't climb, or race, or ski, and travel light, and like simplicity, so this works. I live out of my pack on the trail, without unpacking it at every break. Everything I need is easily at hand while remaining secure.

I'm moving toward smaller pack bags with removable external storage for temporary overflow. My pockets are huge and use positive compression instead of elastic, and can expand to inhale anything, or collapse back to nothing, easily.

Try stuffing your rain wear or (better) six liters of water into those tight mesh pockets. I dare you. The usual, boring, unimaginative, stale designs make it impossible to slip in more than a hankie. And then the elastic ages into uselessness.

Yes, I think we can do better.

[Devin Montgomery]

My question is about the pack fabric – is it 2 oz silnylon? If so, how much does it stretch? I much prefer a stiff pack material, and think a durable, 2 oz. low stretch pack fabric alone would be newsworthy.

I like the daisy chain on the back – BMW started with mountaineering packs, right?

1. If it's cheap, keep it. Very easy to cut out if not needed.

2. I think a detachable pocket, with anchors allowing tight fastening to either shoulder straps or hip belt would be best given differences in preference. I would include one of these with the pack, as I can't imagine needing more than this at your fingertips. Perhaps others could be available as options.

3. I think two side pockets made out of the dense, stretch mesh would be ideal. I find it less snag-prone than larger meshes, and the stretch keeps everything secure (a recurring theme of mine). I would replace the rear pocket with a bungee system for drying wet items. The only thing I use these pockets for are water (one pocket) and snacks/ maps (the other).
4. I prefer roll-top, for, again, the ability to keep different volumes packed tightly.
5. Longer torso – I can't stand anything across my stomach.
6. Keep the lifters – I find that they help keep the top of the pack against my back.

Gosh – now I really want to make a pack!

[Bob Bankhead]

see page 5 summary

[Devin Montgomery]

>Time for some quick totals on responses.

You're a more industrious man than I, Bob. Thanks for meta-analysis! :)

[Jim Colten]

6. Load lifters – too close to call as some "yes" votes are really "optional". (Yes = 12, No = 9)

full disclosure: I'm in the YES! column on this issue.

Having taken care of that detail, allow me to suggest that if they are included but not wanted by any purchaser, their presence can be remedied using this low cost solution or perhaps this pricier solution

[Dana S]

@Jim

ba hahahhahahahaah

[Todd Homchick]

Shoulder strap pockets yes zippers no, no hydration sleeve.. I always put my bladder on top of everything inside the pack or in an outside mesh pocket. Keep all outside pockets. I like the roll top with clip fasteners. don't worry about weather but please no velcro.

Absolutely iliac crest. When I am sucking wind while humping over a tall pass I breath with not only my chest but with my belly as well. I breath much better with the hip belt lower.

Load lifters yes. I like pulling the stays in tight. For me it feels like the pack fits better and conforms more to the shape of my body. When it conforms more it has less of a chance of sliding down. Whatever Dan McHale does with this is correct. On his packs a lot of the pressure from my straps is at the front of my body at my chest relieving some of the pressure at the top of my shoulders.

[Anonymous]

Does the pack have stays?

[Curt Peterson]

Greatest fit variability ideas…

1. Multiple LENGTH shoulder straps. Nobody seems to make long shoulder straps. Almost every off-the-rack pack puts the buckle in my armpit.

2. Multiple size and swappable belts. Same thing as #1.

The main thing is that the "sack" is universal. Make the best sack you can and then let users put the shoulder harness and belt and pockets and do-dads and whatever they want onto that.

The most innovative packs I've ever used are both 6+ years old. The original Kelty Cloud (and later Flight) were a component-based dream that has never been matched. The most variable fit pack ever made as far as I know is the Granite Gear Nimbus Ozone. I did the math once and I believe there were literally HUNDREDS of options for fit on ONE pack sack. It's the pack I still use today.

Combine the FIT options of the Nimbus Ozone, with the COMPONENT options of the Kelty Cloud series into a <2 lb. pack and I'll name my next kid "BPL" :)

[Richard Matthews]

1. Do you guys want a hydration sleeve?

No- But internal pad pocket sleeve could be used for hydration

2. Keep, or skip, the shoulder strap pockets?

Skip the should strap pocket, but add daisy chains.

3. Keep all three outside mesh pockets, keep just the two side pockets (and replace the center pocket with a bungee system), or keep the center pocket and ditch the side pockets?

Keep all three pockets.

4. Proto above has a cinch closure – simplest and lightest option that preserves the max capacity of the packbag, but not weather resistant. Do you need a flap, roll-top closure, etc., or can you live with simple/light for the top?

Maybe a Y top compression strap like GG with an optional top flap like MLD.

Now the big questions: fit.

5. Do you like short torsos where the hip belt crosses your belly, or long torsos where the hip belt crosses your iliac crest?

Do not care. At less than 20 pounds the hip belt is for stability and not weight transfer.

6. Provide "load lifter straps" (which don't really lift the load off the shoulders) which provide some latitude in fit, or skip'em and provide more pack sizes to dial in fit to your torso length, then bring the shoulder straps right over your collarbone crest?

No load lifters. Load lifters need a pack stay to be effective. Just added weight for very little utility.

What niche are you hoping to fill? Lightest? Cheapest? Most durable? There are a good variety of packs available from ULA, GossamerGear, Six Moon Designs, Mountain Laurel Designs and zpacks. Businesses do not like doing business with their competitors. Those owners will likely stop posting on the forums when you start to compete with them.

The Artic Pack is a good example of partnering to fill an unmet demand. What unmet need does this pack fill?

[RC]

1. Absolutely not.
2. Skip.
3. Side pockets only, but what about making one side a double a la GG Mariposa/Miniposa? The bottom one being tilted forward for easy bottle access.
4. A cinch-top with a flap vs. a roll-top will probably weight about the same, so I would go with roll-top for simplicity's sake.
5. Short please. An UL pack shouldn't be loaded to the point that you need to offload the weight onto your hips.
6. More pack sizes.

My 2 cents = 0.01550628 Euros (as of 14 Mar 2009)

[John Haley]

1. No
2. Skip
3. Keep all three outside mesh pockets
4. Cinch closure – or roll top
5. Hip belt that crosses the iliac crest
6. Provide more pack sizes to dial in fit

Of course I've just described several excellent cottage industry packs already in production.

[Matt Lutz]

1. No hydration sleeve.

2. Skip shoulder strap pockets

3. Keep all three outside pockets. Strap systems suck.

4. Roll-top a la Gossamer Gear or single closure strap with cinch cord (like a Jardine pack). No lid!

5. The hipbelt must cross the iliac crest to carry any weight.

6. No load lifers – they are unnecessary on all UL packs.

[Bob Bankhead]

see page 5 summary

[CW]

Might as well respond too.

1. Not necessary

2. Skip them

3. Keep all three

4. Roll-top

5. I'm ok eith either here depending on how much weight it's intended to carry. Heavier wait needs to cross at crest, < 20 lbs I can carry at the waist.

6. Not necessary.

[Pamela Wyant]

1. Hydration sleeve – yes, essential for me. A port would be nice too. Perhaps the hydration sleeve could be a clip on model that is easily removed for those that don't want it.

2. Loose the shoulder straps – hip belt pockets are roomier & can hold the same type of things (i.e. lip balm)

3. Make the 2 side pockets shorter and use cord/webbing above them to allow the sides of the pack to compress. The tall mesh pockets would be a nightmare on brushy or overgrown trail I would think. I like the back pocket to hold a wet tarp or rain gear I think. It should either be elastic or roomy enough to be useful. Perhaps an elastic bungee with cord lock at the top to make it adjustable.

4. Roll top is good.

5. Sized for the hipbelt to fit the iliac crest

6. Less sizes with lifter straps sounds good to me. I sometimes like to change around the way the pack weight carries as elevation becomes steeper.

[Mark Bishop]

1. No hydration sleeve
2. No shoulder strap pockets
3. All 3 external pockets
4. Roll-top
5. Long torso
6. More sizes, no lifter straps

Like others have mentioned, this is a tough market to penetrate. Unless there is something very innovative with the BPL design I'm unlikely to switch from my ULA Conduit.
Mark

[Ken Helwig]

1. Hydration sleeve? Oh yes or at least optional.
2. Shoulder strap pockets? Optional. Kind of thinking how ULA do their ala cart.
3. Keep all 3 mesh pockets
4. Depends. I have a Granite Gear pack and love the roll top. But would be ok with a cinch style
5. Long torso
6. Yes on the load lifters.

Great idea Ryan!

[R K]

1. No Hydration sleeve
2. No shoulder pockets
3. Keep all the mesh pockets
4. Roll top. Although I do really like a cinch with a flap.
5. Short torso
6. No load lifters.

Some additional thoughts:

I like to shoulder most of the weight so some wide straps are nice. Like 3in plus. Breathable foam a must.

Put the should strap adjustment piece down at the bottom like they do on the osprey packs. Very ergonomical that way.

[Chris Chastain]

> I also question the wisdom of (and any perceived need for) competing with the existing cottage industries on major items like packs. BPL already has enough problems maintaining the quantity and quality of their inventories.

Edited by wandering_bob on 03/12/2009 14:40:21 MDT.

Perhaps begging Ryan's original question, but I agree with wandering_bob 100% on this one.

Looks like a nice pack though.

[Derek Cox]

So this may not be in the realm of possibilities for BPL but it seems that everyone wants something slightly different… so why not start with a basic pack and then have options available for extra, similar to what zpacks does. i know this would increase the price, but for some it might be worth it to get exactly what they want. or have maybe a few pre-set pack designs available with different combinations of features… that way it would be more like having a custom pack, but fewer hassle for the makers and a lower price than there would be if they allowed everyone to pick exactly what they want.

i would say for me in general though
1. no bladder sleeve
2. optional add on like most others do
3. all 3 pockets
4. cinch with cover flap or roll-top
5. long torso
6. load lifters.

bottom line: you can't really beat a lot of current packs and companies on quality, customizeabiity, or attention to detail… so make the packs cheaper or do something different if you want this to work.

[Kendall Clement]

My humble opinion/ vote.

1. No hydration sleeve.

2. Skip the shoulder strap pockets.

3. Keep all three outside mesh pockets.

4. Roll-top closure.

5. Long torsos.

6. Skip'em and provide more pack sizes to dial in fit to your torso length.

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