BPL LW Pack 2009

[Ryan Jordan]

Finally, a prototype that's sorta ready for a few photos :)

Don't have a release date yet. We have one more prototype cycle scheduled. We may do a small production run for July 1 delivery if there is interest, given our sorry economy which needless to say should drive us all to the mountains anyways!

Weight range 1.2-1.8 lbs, volume 46L+ (we're also working on a similar but simpler and lighter 32L+ version). Great fit, aesthetics, function, solid load carrying ability, a new and very durable silnylon fabric developed just for packs, built in a factory that specializes in packs so construction quality is superb. I'm excited about this one!

This prototype has dual daisy chains, axe/trekking pole strap, removable bivy pad, padded belt, zip pouches on the hip belt and shoulder straps (4 total), haul loop, upward-tapered (bigger at top) packbag, 42L capacity, fabrics on the "more durable" side of things, and comes in at 23 oz.

So some questions.

1. Do you guys want a hydration sleeve?

2. Keep, or skip, the shoulder strap pockets?

3. Keep all three outside mesh pockets, keep just the two side pockets (and replace the center pocket with a bungee system), or keep the center pocket and ditch the side pockets?

4. Proto above has a cinch closure – simplest and lightest option that preserves the max capacity of the packbag, but not weather resistant. Do you need a flap, roll-top closure, etc., or can you live with simple/light for the top?

Now the big questions: fit.

5. Do you like short torsos where the hip belt crosses your belly, or long torsos where the hip belt crosses your iliac crest?

6. Provide "load lifter straps" (which don't really lift the load off the shoulders) which provide some latitude in fit, or skip'em and provide more pack sizes to dial in fit to your torso length, then bring the shoulder straps right over your collarbone crest?

[Anonymous]

My 2 cents!

1. No hydration sleeve

2. Skip or maybe include just 1 shoulder strap pockets

3. Keep just the two side pockets

4. flap, roll-top closure,

5. long torsos (Im 6'4" and hard to fit)

6. More pack sizes to dial in fit to your torso length.

[Mark]

And my 2 cents…

1. No hydration sleeve
2. (indifferent re: shoulder strap pockets)
3. All 3 external pockets
4. Roll-top
5. Long torso
6. More sizes, no lifter straps

-Mark

[Tom Caldwell]

What's the maximum suggested weight capacity?

Any kind of frame, other than a pad?

Forecasted price range?

Country of production?

1. optional hydration sleeve

2. at least one shoulder strap pocket

3. three outside pockets

4. roll-top closure.

5. not answering that one.

6. load lifters

[Joe Clement]

1. No hydration sleeve

2. Keep the shoulder strap pockets, unless it moves the price up a lot. Bigger belt pockets.

3. Keep all three pockets, make side pockets EASILY accessible for water bottles.

4. Roll-top closure,

5. Long torso

6. Load lifters. I still use those on packs that fit.

[Cayenne Redmonk]

1) Yes- hydration sleeve
2) One/No shoulder pockets
3) all three external pockets
4) Roll-top with beefy enough strap to hold snowshoes or bear bucket in place
5) Long Torso
6) Load lifters if they will reduce cost

[Fred eric]

1. Do you guys want a hydration sleeve?

No

2. Keep, or skip, the shoulder strap pockets?

Skip

3. Keep all three outside mesh pockets, keep just the two side pockets (and replace the center pocket with a bungee system), or keep the center pocket and ditch the side pockets?

2 2 side mesh pocket + bungee

4. Proto above has a cinch closure – simplest and lightest option that preserves the max capacity of the packbag, but not weather resistant. Do you need a flap, roll-top closure, etc., or can you live with simple/light for the top?

roll top

Now the big questions: fit.

5. Do you like short torsos where the hip belt crosses your belly, or long torsos where the hip belt crosses your iliac crest?

long torso

6. Provide "load lifter straps" (which don't really lift the load off the shoulders) which provide some latitude in fit, or skip'em and provide more pack sizes to dial in fit to your torso length, then bring the shoulder straps right over your collarbone crest?

load lifters

[Kathleen B]

"you guys"? Guys??? Hmmmph. Or is this the western generic version of the southern generic y'all?

1. No hydration sleeve
2. Keep shoulder strap pockets
3. All 3 external pockets, with the back one stretchy enough to hold a wet tarptent
4. Roll-top
5. Not sure
6. More sizes, no lifter straps

Edited after reading Bob's post below. Even though this new pack sounds great, I have no plans to buy one because I really, really, really like my ULA Relay and Circuit.

[Jolly Green Giant]

Thanks for keeping the lightweight movement, well, MOVING!

I too am for longer torso stuff (in this and everything else in the BPL line.)

1. NO hydration sleeve.

2. NO shoulder strap pockets.

3. Keep all three outside mesh pockets AND add a bungee system in the center. Hip belt pockets are a must.

4. Roll-top, roll-top, roll-top.

5. "On" the hips, like a belt.

6. I think the right design can forgo the need to use load lifter straps, but it's tough to get it right in packs designed for the masses…hence why they exist in the first place.

[Dana S]

1. No
2. Skip
3. keep all three pockets but make the side ones smaller. They're too deep. Or make one deep and one short. I like to put a fly rod on one side and platy on the other.
4. I'm a fan of the roll top.
5. Long
6. No load lifters. More options would be nice. Especially Combos between bag/belt sizes. I use GG Large bags but Medium belts.

[Jay Wilkerson]

1. Yes
2. No
3. Keep all three mesh pockets
4. Yes..more packing options
5. Long torso
6. I like load lifters- good for big guys

2 Cents Worth

[Bob Bankhead]

1. no hydration sleeve

2, no shoulder pockets (they get in the way)

3. 2 side plus bungee (need someplace to strap odd-sized things on; not everything fits well in pockets). I also don't like angled openings – things fall out too easily.

4. rolltop (or put grommeted holes in hte bottom of hte packbag so rain can flow out)

5. long

6. keep load lifters (if this pack will have any kind of frame to transfer weight. They're meaningless without same.)

Suggestion: I alway find it difficult and uncomfortable to reach behind me to handle a water bottle. Why not attach a removeable 1 liter water bottle holder to the hipbelt between the packbag and the hipbelt pocket? Being removeable, it could be placed on whichever side (or both or not at all) desired.

I also question the wisdom of (and any perceived need for) competing with the existing cottage industries on major items like packs. BPL already has enough problems maintaining the quantity and quality of their inventories.

[William Puckett]

1. Yes – Hydration sleeve
2. Skip shoulder pockets, but having them as "optional" would be a big plus.
3. Keep all three mesh pockets, though one side pocket could be "short" to accomodate item removal while wearing the pack.
4. Don't need a flap. Roll top works well. Cinch is not a deal breaker.
5. I like "real" hip belts at the iliac crest for efficient load-bearing.
6. Add more pack sizes and drop the load lifter straps.

[Tad Englund]

1. NO! hydration sleeve

2. SKIP, the shoulder strap pockets.

3. Keep ALL THREE outside mesh pockets.
Make them expandable to allow stuff to go in! They look a little tight. If they are fully packed you need to be able to get a water bottle and something else on both sides. Also the front pocket need to expand to except a wet tarp, clothes, rain gear,etc.

4. ROLL-TOP, it rain in the Northwest!

Now the big questions: fit.

5. LONG TORSOS were the hip belt crosses your Iliac crest. I blown disk requires all the weight to be on the hips!

6. I think this is a tough one. It would be best to offer more pack sizes, but then you have a inventory issue. How do you plan for all the possible size options? I think this one might be a business decision? I would prefer a perfect fit!

Thanks for asking

[Jim Colten]

1) no hydration sleeve
2) detachable shoulder strap pockets and detachable shoulder strap water bottle holder designed to mate well with this pack and sold as a separate purchases.
3) keep all three pockets. Pleat them so as to be able to handle moderately bulky items
4) roll top closure
5) long torso
6) yes, I find load lifters are useful in a frameless pack IF your keep the pack full

I consider a functional compression system to be key to keeping the pack full and rigid. Route the compression system inside the pockets

Make the hip belt pockets larger than shown.

edited

[Richard Lyon]

1. YES on hydration sleeve

2. Keep the shoulder strap pockets

3. Keep the two side pockets and replace the center pocket with a bungee system

4. A flap (my preference) or a roll-top

5. Short torso

6. Neutral on this one

[Greg Mihalik]

1. No hydration sleeve

2. Skip the shoulder strap pockets

3. Keep all three outside mesh pockets

4. Roll-top closure

5. Long torsos where the hip belt crosses your iliac crest?

6. Provide "load lifter straps AND provide more pack sizes

[Roger Caffin]

No hydration sleeve.

Skip shoulder strap pockets (excess weight, excess cost), but include one or two tapes across the straps to hook a camera case to.

Dispense with all mesh pockets: they snag and add weight.

Simple sleeve throat of adequate length rather than roll-top (lighter), with light flap over the top. Both waterproof.

Dual daisy chains – why? better to put gear inside the pack and save the weight. But, a couple of attachment points should be provided instead.

Webbing attachments straps across at the top – yes, definitely.

Torso length – not on the belly!

Pockets on hip belt: delete. Awkward things anyhow, and usually don't hold much. Extra cost & weight as well.

Load lifter straps needed, but use light 20 mm tape rather than full webbing. (I use this light binding tape myself and it has been reliable for many years.)

If you have lots of torso lengths instead you will spend a fortune on shipping 4 sizes out and getting 3 of them back to restock.

My 2c

Cheers

[Ken Thompson]

So, fewer quality articles. Things always out of stock in the store. Art commissioning. Now gear manufacturing. Ryan,Can we focus!? Where are we going? And I don't want a reply from Roger.

[Tom Caldwell]

Have it built in the USA and it'll have a cult following. Build it in Vietnam, or somewhere around there, and everyone will hate it.

[Ryan Jordan]

Ken,

We've been in the manufacturing side since 2003, since we commissioned quilts from Nunatak and bivies from Oware.

But, yes, as for focus: we are. That's why we eliminated the print mag, we won't be doing art commissioning any more (that was a one time gig), and most recently, we have eliminated advertising completely.

Thus, BPL's focus will lie in three areas:

1. Editorial content publishing
2. Retail & OEM Gear manufacturing
3. Education services

#1 and #2 have been here since Day 1 and #3 is a logical extension of #1 for us.

These are the three areas that our community has asked us to focus on, so that is indeed where we are going.

Fewer quality articles? I'm not sure where that perception is coming from. We expanded the breadth and depth of our editorial calendar significantly since the latter part of 2008, in response to the big reader survey asking for same.

And, as for "things always out of stock in the store" – I'll concede on that one. There is some intentionality there – dumping a bunch of inventory in late 2008 to free up cash to carry our company through the lows of this recession. As a result, we're starting from very low inventory levels and are being pretty cautious about ramping it back up. But spring is here, and by April 7, we plan to have the shop pretty much fully stocked.

Anyway, the packs have been in the queue before the market tanked, so I'm only posting photos of the latest round for feedback, not promising that we are going to allocate resources away from "quality articles" or "store inventory" to bring them to market for all y'all soon. Like I said, we may do a small run just to get a few in the hands of those that have been asking for them the most.

RJ

[Richard Scruggs]

1. No hydration sleeve

2. Skip the shoulder strap pockets — but how about a horizontal piece of material (about an inch or two wide) placed across one (or both) of the shoulder straps that could be used to clip or otherwise attach an item or small pouch to one or both of the shoulder straps if desired?

3. Keep just the two side pockets and replace the center pocket with a bungee system (have about 4 fabric loops spaced down the each of the four vertical edges of the pack so that cord can be laced through the loops when needed, or left off when not — in addition to allowing gear to be secured to the sides or rear of the pack, the loops with cord threaded through them would also afford a means of compression for the sides of the pack and/or across the back of the pack (doesn't look like the proto has any side or rear compression straps at present, which would be a big negative that can be solved with little weight penalty if there are a system of loops provided as described above for use with cord — at least to lace up the entire rear panel and also compress the sides above the side mesh pockets) — AND IF rear mesh pocket is also included, would be nice to still have about 4 loops sewn up each of the two vertical rear seams on the INSIDE of the rear pocket — with the first ones starting from each of the rear pocket's two bottom corners and the upper loops placed at or near the top of the back panel — so that a cord could be cross-laced through the loops to compress the back of the pack while still leaving access unimpeded into the back pocket even with the cord laced through the loops and compressing the rear of the pack (the Ark pack by MLD has this arrangement of loops inside the back pocket starting at the inside corners of the back pocket and ending up near the top — very helpful if the need exists for compressing the pack across the back)

4. Cinch closure is good, with sufficient material to adequately cover contents even when the pack is stuffed full to overflowing — and small waterproof flap also good

5. Long torsos with hip belt crossing iliac crest

6. Provide "load lifter straps" — although they don't really lift the load off the shoulders, they do provide latitude in fit, and also keep the number of sizes for the pack to maybe just two (less than 20" torso and torso of 20" or more seems about standard); and please be sure to leave adequate space between top of shoulder straps to keep from pinching into neck

As for daisy chains — my strong preference is skip 'em and save the weight, but if the daisy chains were also to be available for securing the handle of an ice ax or other item sticking up from the ice ax loop at the bottom of the pack (trek poles, for example), there would need to be some means provided for tying off the upper portion of the ice ax or poles at or near the top of the pack

A last thought — if there is a rear pocket, pleated non-stretch mesh with plenty of "pleat" might be better than stretchy mesh — with some means of securing/snugging the top of the pocket tight, maybe a strong elastic cord sewn into a narrow sleeve of material horizontally across the top of the rear pocket, with a toggle at the middle of the cord that could be tightened?

Oh, yes, and maybe some options for color of materials for the pack? Just kidding.

Thanks for soliciting the input!

JRS

[carlos fernandez rivas]

Well …. why not one 46Lt pack with all the add-ons (hydration sleeve,shoulder strap pockets, mesh pockets … etc …) and one 33/36lts really ultralight whitout add-ons.????

1. YES i prefer one hydration sleeve ..

2. Keep ONE shoulder strap pocket

3. Keep all three outside mesh pockets, The main pocket is useful, and the net helps to protect the main body.

4. May be a minimun closure is a good idea but cinch closure is ok

Now the big questions: fit.

5. Please i prefer long torsos where the hip belt crosses your iliac crest? And a good useful suporting hip belt

6. I prefer more pack sizes to dial in fit to your torso length

[Nick Gatel]

Ryan,

Last year I spent several months shopping for the 'perfect' lightweight pack. I settled on a ULA Conduit for just over $100. My comments on your prototype will be referenced to my experiences with this popular ULA pack… the features and benefits I like, plus its shortcomings.

Size/weight – don't know how you are measuring, but my ULA at 50L weighs 16.9 oz without hip pockets. So far, the material of the ULA seems pretty durable.

1. Hydration sleeve – I don't consider these set-ups as lightweight. Not necessary.

2. Shoulder strap pockets – make them optional and removable. I sometimes use a couple MLD pockets with my ULA at .5 oz each and a perfect size. Still need to figure a better method to keep them from sliding. They use those plastic strap quick clips. Probably sewing the web strap to the wider fabric, about 1" below where the web is attached would work. I like to keep my camera in one, because I don't feel comfortable keeping this expensive item in a hip pocket when I remove the pack and lay it on the ground. I like the MLD Velcro closure, plus the plastic snap.

3. I like 3 mesh pockets. Especially to stuff a wet poncho in, or keep tent stakes and wind gear in. If it is tight, you aren't going to stuff a lot of stuff in them. I like to keep a water bottle in each side pocket. Your side pockets look too tall. The ULA has much smaller pockets and are angled for easy access to water bottles. Problem is a 1 liter platy will fall out of the ULA side pocket, requiring a heavier Gatoraide bottle. I am thinking about asking Brian if he can redo mine with no angle, or a higher angle. I have never seen an angled side pocket that is truly easy to access while moving anyway. For me, I usually just stop and take a water break, or just sling the pack on one shoulder, take out the bottle and drink while walking. You need to be a contortionist to grab something from a side pocket, IMO.

4. Top – roll top extension collar. More capacity if needed. I have a MLD top lid which I sometimes use with my ULA. Doesn't fit perfectly and weighs 2.5 oz, but can be useful once in a while. The top lid stays at home most of the time. An extension roll top is a versatile option.

5. Short torso… ultralight pack doesn't need to shift a lot of weight to the hips. I like the belt high. On a heavy pack, it needs to be lower.

6. Load lifter straps… extra weight and marketing hype.

Notes on #5 & #6, I am 5' 11" and it is easy for me to find a well-fitting pack. Actually I am going to remove the sternum staps on my ULA, because the should straps fit me perfect. This is the challenge, to minimize sizes and cover a large range of body shapes/sizes. It might be easier to fix our economic woes, than to devise a small product line that adapts to many sizes of torsos!!

Hip pockets – I like them. For me, hip pockets are a requirement in a pack. The ULA pockets are removeable, but a little bit of work, because you have to undo the shoulder stap buckles. They weigh about 1 oz each. I love the ULA hip pockets. They are much bigger than the ones on my Gregory 95L. Brian's hip pockets are simply wonderful.

Question – I know you need to generate sales to stay in business. You have some great products, especially the Merino Hoody, which fills a unique niche in the market place. How is your pack going to fit into the market place? How is it different that the offerings from ULA, MLD, GoLit, 6 Moons, etc? Is is just a re-hash of what is already available. Please don't take these questions as a negative… but I would like to see something new and unique. The pack isn't that light, doesn't have anything already available somewhere else. So the last benefit you might offer is price. Can you sell it for $80 or less?… Probably not. I just bring these things up, because there is a cost to product R&D, and you must assess the market before investing in production. BTW, I have found this site and your book excellent resources, so I am a BPL fan… just to set the record straight.

Good luck on whatever path you choose, and it is a nice touch to see you solicit feedback from your readers.

[Greg Mihalik]

I recall a statement made some time ago regarding packs –

"Me, I'd be inclined to skip the pack frame attempt at dual use and store the pad in its minimal volume configuratioｎ　（ｄｅｆｌａｔｅｄ　ａｎｄ　ｒｏｌｌｅｄ　ｕｐ）　ｉｎ　ｔｈｅ　ｐａｃｋ　ａｎｄ　ｒｅｌｙ　ｏｎ　ｓｏｍｅｔｈｉｎｇ 　ｅｌｓｅ　ｆｏｒ　ｐａｃｋ　ｓｔｒｕｃｔｕｒｅ ." [sic]

I don't see any mention of support in this design, so I'm wondering how this pack fits into that view.

Thanks.

[Author]

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