Pitching a Tent in the Snow

[Addie Bedford]

Companion forum thread to:

Pitching a Tent in the Snow

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Ralph

> this is an accepted and necessary thing at times
Too right! Fine calm still 'warm' sunny afternoons – anything goes. Way sub-freezing and a strong wind – where else would you be?

The hazard depends on several factors. If you are using a canister stove then lighting up is not dangerous. Priming a liquid fuel stove can be far more of a hazard. It is possible to do it 'safely' in a vestibule, but it takes practice, and should be done with a little ethanol rather than white gas too.

The CO issue has been extensively covered in our series of articles on that. ventilation is always necessary.

One or two stove manufacturers go hysterical at the mere suggestion of cooking in the vestibule – MSR are well-known for this (too many lawyers). They are ignoring both reality and safety: you don't sit outside at night in a howling storm in the snow! Hypothermia, here we come.

> Where can I go to find this covered more extensively?
Hum, yeah, we had already thought about that one! It's sort of in the planning stage right now. In the meantime, have a go, cautiously. I would recommend a remote canister stove as being a good safe choice.

Cheers

[Robert Blean]

Ralph,

Necessary — yup. Trying to cook outside when it is way sub-zero (F) and the winds are howling does not work very well, and you can also get very cold very fast.

All "knowledgeable" advisors and all stove manufacturers emphatically tell you not to run your stove in your tent — and have done so for the last 50 years or more. A few of the possible problems:
* Flare up when lighting the stove can damage your tent.
* Spilled fuel getting ignited. You could wind up with a fire blocking your tent's only exit
* Spilling a pot of water and getting your sleeping bag or clothing soaked

Nevertheless, everyone I have ever winter camped in the mountains with does it — very carefully.

Roger's suggestions are good ones.

— MV

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Bob and Ralph

> * Flare up when lighting the stove can damage your tent.
Too right. A good solution is to use a canister stove instead.

> * Spilled fuel getting ignited. You could wind up with a fire blocking your tent's only exit.
Too right. A good solution is to use a canister stove instead.
Mind you, if one end of the tent was alight, I am sure I could find another exit real quick! :-)

> * Spilling a pot of water and getting your sleeping bag or clothing soaked
Ah – this one is a function of the tent vestibule. If it is very small or non-existent, then yes, it is a problem. But a good winter tent will have a decent vestibule for cooking in (by definition). Spilt water out there does not matter.

Does that mean that tents like the Black Diamond Ahwahnee and I-tent are not 'good' winter tents? Without their optional vestibule, dead right imho. OK for an emergency bivouac maybe, but not for decent living.

Cheers

[Robert Blean]

Roger,

At what temperatures is it important to have a winter canister stove (i.e. canister upside down, feeding liquid), instead of a normal stove (canister upright) — assuming normal altitudes (say sea level to 10,000')?

Do the upside-down ones have added safety issues, such as the possibility of enough liquid coming out to flare?

— Bob

[Steven Evans]

Bob,
Roger has done articles on stoves (in cold temps). Extremely useful information in there. I routinely bug him about trying to melt snow (efficiently and in lightweight style of course) in the winter – he loves it…ask away! I think he invented the stove :)

If you look a few threads down, I have a winter stove question awaiting his answer (hint hint Roger) ;)

p.s. You'll know when it's time to go with the inverted canister when it takes 1 hour to boil a liter of water/melt snow…or you simply can't do it.

[ANTHONY ZEPPETELLA]

No cold sump with sleeping platform but a very comfy night regardless. (I just love this tent)

[Franco Darioli]

Gerry
Sorry I did not spot this earlier.
Yes the 08 version of the Rainbow and DR have grommets at the end of the cross strut sleeve so that you can insert a trekking pole tip there and guy it out.
Easy enough to do with the earlier versions , but I haven't bothered.
Henry sells a 9mm pole as an option, I can't find it at the TT site but send them an E Mail request if you are interested. Apparently it's about 30% stronger than the standard version. From memory that is about right according to some charts I spotted some time ago (maybe from Easton)
Note that the Rainbow in Steven's shot can take the poles but are not in use.
BTW according to another TT user the symmetrical shape of the DR will take more wind than the single. ( I knew that…, note the difference in the set up on the Rainbow page between Henry's prototype( top right) and mine underneath)
Franco

Anthony
Nice "glow "

[Steven Evans]

Franco, thanks for the heads up. I didn't know about the additional grommets and I'm sure my buddy (the owner of the DR) doesn't either. I'll pass it along.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Bob

As Steve said, we have a number of articles at BPL on Winter Stoves and remote canister stoves. The easiest way to find some of them is to search on my name. :-)
You could also search on Will Rietveld.

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Steve

> If you look a few threads down, I have a winter stove question awaiting his answer (hint hint Roger) ;)

Can't find it. Help?

Cheers

[Rod Lawlor]

Roger said
"This is a Australian-made Antarctic tent, in use in the Antarctic. A pyramid. Very robust.
But please note: the fabric is canvas, and I think the pole is 2" diameter or something like that!"

Actually these have no centre pole, which is pretty nice. The black sleeves are pole sleeves which form a full frame. I'm not sure about the canvas though. I thought it was nylon. I'll ask on Sunday if you like.

Rod

[Rod Lawlor]

Roger wrote"Mind you, if one end of the tent was alight, I am sure I could find another exit real quick! :-)"

I wouldn't worry about it to much Roger. I'm not sure if you've ever seen a tent go up or not, but it's pretty impressive. One disappeared in the campsite next to me in Holland a few years ago. I had my head in my tent grabbing a book and heard a 'Whomp' By the time I pulled my head out, there where two very dazed looking Dutch guys sitting in their ex-vestibule with a Primus pierceable between them. The poles where just slowly toppling over as I watched, but the fly had just disintegrated/dissolved. Not much thermal mass there.

Rod

[Nicolas Costes]

You may want to check the new shovel by grivel.

Heavier than the snowclaw, but much more useful.

http://www.grivel.com/Products/tabella_rescue.asp

http://www.tvmountain.com/index.php?option=com_hwdvideoshare&task=viewvideo&Itemid=136&video_id=1130

[Steven Nelson]

Enjoyable article, Roger – and fun to see so many of my photos were of use.

I'll take small exception to one point, and that's on the ease of pitching dome tents in adverse conditions. Many, if not most, can be staked down in advance, just like the tunnel tents. Start at the windward end (I often use my ice axe to create a strong first anchor point), and go from there. You can also pre-stake slacked guylines to get a start on that as well.

The Hilleberg dome tents (and others with external poles and clips) are particularly suited to this. Stake down the body, then put the poles in place; they offer little wind resistance at this point. You then clip up the body of the tent, working around its perimeter in stages. It's actually quite easy, even in a gale. Tighten up all guylines and you're set. It's no more difficult to do solo than to set up a tunnel tent – though it does indeed take a bit longer.

The larger Biblers are more problematic because they present a fair amount of surface area to the wind as you try to get the poles in place from the inside; the first couple of poles get a lot of pressure on them, and full stability is only reached when all are in place and the hook and loop fasteners or ties locking them together have been fully set. In the extreme conditions preceding my photo of the Tempest, those initial loads on the two main crossing poles caused them to bend.

In contrast, the Hilleberg poles go up with no fabric to catch the wind, and in the example of the Saivo, all seven crossing points are in place, and the pole ends are in very secure sleeves, before you start clipping up the fabric. This gives it excellent strength right from the start.

By the way, my photos of the Saivo don't make it clear that it has vestibules at both ends; so, for the photo of the Saivo partly buried in the snow near Lassen Peak, the other vestibule was more sheltered (although I'll note a quibble with the design of the Saivo and Jannu: the vestibules have a rather shallow slope and do collapse down some under snow loading).

One of the nice things about the Saivo's double-ended design and the way its vestibules are set up in an asymmetric design with four-way zippers is that regardless of shifts in the wind, there is always a way to enter and exit downwind. And, at the cost of additional weight, the dome design handles wind loading from any direction with aplomb, and can survive much greater static snow loading than a tunnel tent. This is really only important if you're leaving it out as a base – as you note, if you're inside or near the tent as the snow builds up, the best policy is to occasionally shake or shovel it off, regardless of the tent's design.

Thanks for helping spread the joy of winter camping – definitely my favorite time to be out there, and one that is accessible to all with just a bit of extra knowledge and suitable gear.

Cheers,
Steve

[Steven Nelson]

One other point that must be made about tarptents and 3-season tents is that, while they certainly can be used in winter (the pictures of the Cloudburst at Yosemite and the Brawny Tarptent at Lassen and Yosemite in the article are mine), not only is snow and wind loading an issue, as Roger points out, but they will rapidly fill with spindrift in windy conditions. That means wet gear at the very least.

I used a Big Sky Evolution 2P at the same site as the Bibler Tempest in my pictures (different trip, but a spot that often gets extreme conditions), and, it was flattened by a blizzard, with spindrift infiltrating the tent interior long before that. No storm was forecast, and the tent was not built for such conditions, but you never know what you're going to get in winter…

The message isn't to not use open tents in winter – if you're careful about conditions, they can be a joy – but definitely be aware of how quickly spindrift can make life miserable in them. The previous suggestion of using a bivy sack is a good one and what I do, plus keeping other gear packed away in my pack, pulk, or sealed stuff sacks. However, unless I'm certain no storm is on its way, I'll generally bring a real winter tent that can be fully sealed up.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Bob

> At what temperatures is it important to have a winter canister stove (i.e. canister upside
> down, feeding liquid), instead of a normal stove (canister upright) — assuming normal altitudes
> (say sea level to 10,000')?
Many variables here. We have several good articles on winter use of canister stoves which go into this in some detail. Searching on my name and that of Will Rietveld will produce them.
Short answer: if the canister hits 0 C you will usually have problems. An iso-butane/propane mix can go lower.

> Do the upside-down ones have added safety issues, such as the possibility of enough liquid coming out to flare?
If the stove has a good preheat tube system, this is most unlikely. If it does not have a preheat system, it **WILL** flare.
A canister stove is identical to a white gas stove in this context, except that is is much safer because of boiling points of the fuels.

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Steve

> the ease of pitching dome tents in adverse conditions
Maybe I was not clear enough here. I was focusing on those light 2-pole pop-up domes where the inner goes up and then the fly is thrown over. In a gale, these really are a problem. In fact, any of the domes with just 2 or 3 long poles are a pitching problem due to the wind cross-section.

When the dome has many crossing poles I usually call it a geodesic dome, as do many others. These are much stronger – but also much heavier. The Saivo has 7 poles! Very strong.

The first dome tent I ever made, in the early 60s, had two long internal poles. Yes, pitching it in bad weather was 'interesting'! Mind you, at 7' square it had a LOT of room. I think we managed to get about 12 people in it in the snow once for a birthday party…

> joy of winter camping
Yes!

Cheers

[ROBERT TANGEN]

I agree with Roger that there is a lot of fuzzy thinking and vague terminology when it comes to dome tents. The North Face VE 25 is one of the standards on Everest and Denali (so I've been told, I'm not an expert) and it derives its strength from the self-reinforcing qualities of the geodesic dome. They say that Buckminster Fuller invented, or at least promoted this design, and it was used as the cover of our early detection radar in northern Canada and Alaska. You may have seen a few houses with all these triangular facets, which are derived from Bucky's geodesic mathematics. But the VE 25 and similar tents are very heavy, and not really usable as UL gear, at least until somebody uses titanium poles and Cuben sail cloth.

[Roger Caffin]

Actually, I have reservations about calling the 'geodesic dome tents' by that name. This is a REAL geodesic dome, Buckminster Fuller style.

We built that in the 60s on Mt Feathertop for the Melbourne University Mountaineering Club. It was designed on an IBM 7044 mainframe computer (cost 1 million pounds!) by a final year engineering student there. As he was one of the first to have ever done that design on a computer, he got job offers from international companies like Boeing.

The girl at the front is my wife.

EDIT: it occurs to me that many of you guys might be amused at what happened that first winter. We built the dome, locked basement, ground floor and first floor, in the summer. It was great in the summer.

But the first winter, with 20 bodies inside and damp clothes hung up to dry, guess what? Condensation on the inside of the aluminium shell! It RAINED! Oh Dear, oh dear!

We had to line the shell the next summer with decent thick insulation.

Cheers

[Chris Townsend]

Good article Roger and some interesting photos. Here's a couple from this winter in Scotland where we had some exceptionally heavy snowfalls. I had a couple of tents pitched during the snowy weather.

First is the TarpTent Scarp 1, second the Hilleberg Soulo. Both tents stood up to the snow fine.

[Michael Davis]

Yikes Chris! That's pretty impressive!
I would love to hear more details about how the Scarp faired in these conditions!

[Chris Townsend]

Michael, the Scarp fared well. I used the cross poles of course. I think it would have collapsed without them. A couple of the connectors for the cross poles came undone in the snow and the inner did sag a little under them. It's possible I hadn't fastened them correctly as they are a bit fiddly with cold fingers.

I took the Scarp on an overnight trip up a local hill. There's a picture and report on my blog: http://www.christownsendoutdoors.co.uk/

[Steven Nelson]

Roger said:

>When the dome has many crossing poles I usually call it a
>geodesic dome, as do many others. These are much stronger –
>but also much heavier. The Saivo has 7 poles! Very strong.

Just to be clear, seven crossing points, created by four equal-length poles. Very strong (and, as you note, relatively heavy at 10 pounds).

Chris:

Fantastic pictures! Good to see both tents stood up to the snow loading so well. I tried the Saivo but found it too cramped, vestibule included, and so went with the Jannu for my smaller winter tent. Haven't regretted the extra weight yet for solo use, though I tend to use a pulk most times in the winter these days, not a pack, so that makes the weight easier to bear.

Two with winter gear can squeeze into the Jannu as well, which seems out of the question for the Saivo and Scarp (though I'll be curious to hear what you think).

[Elliott Wolin]

One thing I used to always take was a small homemade snow saw, about 18" long, like a small serrated sword with a wood handle. Didn't weigh much. With it I could cut medium-sized snow blocks for wind breaks or whatever.

In the old double A-frame days I'd make a wall of blocks around the tent entrance, up to the fly (about 16" up) which formed a covered triangular vestibule. It was outside the tent proper, but under the fly, and there was no CO2 problem cooking in there. Also no problem with spills. And I'd hang a candle lantern from the front guy that would light up the cooking vestibule and the tent.

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