Considering the switch to tarp/bivy

[Joseph Reeves]

Dirk,

As you may have noticed, I started a thread regarding canceled plans due to the weather. I think a lot of us are reverting to alternative plans.

Still, Solstice happened and the light is returning.

[Dirk Rabdau]

Jamie –

I can totally deal with three minutes to put everything away. I am a pretty impatient guy in the morning – maybe it's because I am cranky, cold, didn't sleep well or am suffering from debilitating chafe (thanks to all at BPL who provided me with cures to this most horrible problem).

The last thing I like to do in the morning, especially when it's raining, is to deal with my tent and its mortal enemy, the stuff sack. Like the Palestinians and Israelis, these two are not the best of friends. Perhaps it's just me, but most stuff sacks are built to be about 25 percent too small for the tent placed inside.

I can deal with being wet when I pee. Besides, we rarely get the kind of incredible downpours that you might receive in the East.

Thank you for sharing your experiences, your photos and your enthusiasm for making the switch. I look forward to giving it a try as well!

Best wishes to you during this holiday season!

Dirk

[Dirk Rabdau]

Tom –

I can't blame you taking a turn at the Scarp1. An impressive looking shelter indeed and very tempting….Alas, I must remain strong and resist the urge to buy another tent.

Gear lust is a terrible thing, you are right. Thanks for all of your suggestions and insights. I agree this thread has been a real learning experience.

All my best,

Dirk

[Dirk Rabdau]

Joseph –

Great point. Longer days are here again!

Great theme in chaff. I know a lot of people around the country (and beyond) are trapped by seasonable weather!

Dirk

[Tony Wong]

Dirk,

Good question regarding how the sleeping pad effects the space inside the bivy.

The 2007 Soul Side Zip Bivy that I have included an elastic cord on the exterior bottom of the bivy to allow a pad to stay in place if you used it outside the bivy.

I think mine also has a similar setup on the inside of the bivy.

I sleep with my Prolite 4 pad inside my bivy, which is 1.5 ounces, and I do not use any of the included cord to keep my pad in place.

On the MLD website, it stated that if you use a pad that is thicker than 1 inch, the wide option was recommended.

Given that this has been my 1st bivy, I really appreciate the extra space that the wide provides me to move around and not feel constricted.

Another tip that I have found to really enhance my experience using the MLD bivy: Use the tie off loop at the top of the head of the bivy and attach it to a branch or one of your poles. This pulls the "face" area off my face and provides a lot of extra head space.

There was another post on the forum that showed how to use a single pole to tie off to, using tension to keep the pole upright that I want to try on my next trip.

To answer your question about pad size/thickness and the bivy…I am not sure that using an air mattress would be possible in a bivy. The loft of the sleeping bag could be seriously compressed against the top of the bivy and reduce the effective warmth of the bag.

Hope the photos help.

-Tony

[Dirk Rabdau]

Tony –

I really appreciate the bivy photos and the explanation of your setup and answering my questions. I appreciate the way you setup your poles attach to the line from your hood. An ingenious setup! And thanks for answering the questions about the sleeping pads. I am a side sleeper and my freaking (admittedly older) 3/4 thermarest pad isn't exactly the world's most comfortable pad.

It's good to see the side zip soul bivy in action. Would you buy that bivy again? Did you find the side entry to be a major selling point? Besides draftiness, are there any other downsides to the side zip?

Again, this entire thread has been quite illuminating to me. I honestly haven't met many bivy users along the trail, but that might have to do more to do with living in Washington and its stubborn rain than a commentary on the effectiveness of the tarp/bivy combinations.

Finally have you had much experience in the bivy in the rain (without a tarp)?

I should add that the Wiki would benefit from a section that explains some of these questions and shows actual setups. It is a lot easier to get some direction rather than have to learn everything by trial and error. Certainly, I wish I had more advice early on in my backpacking experience.

Thank you for all of your help. Best wishes during the holiday season and beyond!

Thanks,

Dirk

[Brian UL]

A waterproof bivy is great where it dosnt rain that much and when it does its relatively short. When its raining all day you may want to cook and move around a little under a tarp instead of being held-up inside the bivy for hours on end.
Here is my camp in northern New Hampshire:
with a Tigoat bivy and a small spinnaker 8×5 MLD monk tarp.

[David Ure]

nm

[Greg Mihalik]

Roger Caffin –

Would you please post a shot of your 'gape-mouth' stuff sack again? It is a great solution to this issue. (It would take me a day to find it here.)

Thanks.

[Tony Wong]

Dirk & David,

You are correct in that my setup for using my poles as a tie off for the hood of my bivy would not stand up to any strong wind.

I am not an experienced bivy user by any stretch of the imagination….having only transitioned to a bivy this year.

The photos that you saw were just a spur of the moment thought solution that I came up with vs. any established technique that I read about.

If I were in a situation that had a lot of wind or threatened bad weather, I would have setup my MLD poncho-tarp for wind & rain protection. Also, the MLD poncho tarp conviently has two tie off loops under it for the purpose of doing what I did with my poles. (They are also used as belt loops when in poncho mode.

As this was my 1st bivy, I opted to go as "bomber" as I could with the materials. In my case, I have the eVent top and silnylon 2.0 bottom.

I love having the side zip and I would not want a bivy without it.

As I have a bladder that is the size of a walnut, I often have to get up multiple times at night to go to the bathroom….the side zip makes it really easy.

On one trip, Emigrant Wilderness in Aug, I enjoyed sleeping with my bivy unzipped and the opening folded over.

No doubt, a few bugs crawled in with me, but I did enjoy the open feeling of sleeping out under my tarp.

Would I buy my bivy again?

I would buy it again, Ron makes a great product.

However, as I am getting more and more experience with using a bivy, I think that I might lean towards getting the Superlight, which is lighter and cheaper.

I bought my bivy with the thought that if things were really bad and I could not setup my tarp, I would be okay in my bivy….and I think that the eVent Soul Side Zip provides me this option.

Realistically, I don't see any time in the future where I could not setup my tarp, hence why the Superlight is an attractive option.

Weight/Cost vs. Protection….it is a trade off.

I have yet to get rained on while just using my bivy.

P.S. I have noticed that the Soul Side Zip does have a more generous amount of bug netting in the head space, which would go a long way for helping me not feel constrained/trapped in a small space.

-Tony

[Michael Cheifetz]

Dirk,
Like you i am quite new to tarping+bivy….but I took a slightly different approach (DISCLAIMER – I assume 3 season weather and not the sort of bigwall/alpine winter bivouac):
I want a foolproof solution for sleeping. WR bivys are not such (IMHO) since if for some reason you cannot set your tarp (rocky/injury/too windy) you will get wet (of course assuming precip).
hence I opted for a WP/B bivy (i bought a Rab survival zone for 50$…but if i get more serious i would buy a MLD Alpine or Soul side with eVent). There is a penalty in weight but I know that i will not die of hypotermia with a wet down bag…i think ;)
With the tarp i have gone for a Micro Tarp (bought one from backpackinglight.co.uk – which is simple and cheap but you could either buy from one of the UK guys, make yourself or have Ron customize a Monk cuben…see links later on)
Basically the idea is that the weight i paid for the WP/B i get some back with tiny tarp that only covers torso but allows having half body out, cooking and such. It is also simple to setup (just one pole and one line) and i think you are right that generally the larger the tarp the harder it is to face harsh winds…
Look at Mike here that made a DIY micro tarp http://www.backpacking-lite.co.uk/diy/make-an-ultralight-solo-micro-tarp.html
Also BPL.co.uk have simple nice one http://www.backpackinglight.co.uk/product157.asp
and TeamIO also have one (not on their website…but you might get wayne to make you one or get the plans. their website is http://www.teamio.co.uk but look at the 25g (!) cuben micro tarp here http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/news/article/mps/uan/5278

worth a thought (yeah yeah – i know most ppl here love their DWR bivi…thats ok too. YMMV
Mike

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Greg

> your 'gape-mouth' stuff sack
Sure. basically it is a stuff sack which opens down the long side rather than across the narrow top.

Dead simple. Made out of scrap silnylon – which is partly why the two colours!
Note the brass eyelet reinforcing the string exit: necessary for a decent life.

Cheers

[Greg Mihalik]

Roger –

I was, of course, making it harder than I needed to.
And I missed the loop opposite the draw cord eyelet.

Thanks.

Greg

[Dirk Rabdau]

Brian –

I agree being rained upon while in a bivy all night doesn't sound like much fun; I don't care how dry I am inside the bivy, you eventually have to get out. To have a little coverage to cook and spread out some gear is psychologically a boost, especially on cold and rainy fall days when you begin to question yourself, "Why did I pick this hobby again?"

Obviously one good day on the trail can do a lot to cure the blues from consecutive days of rain. I like the pics of your setup, how is that tarp working out for you?

Dirk

[Brian UL]

That tarp worked out just fine, but its hard to recommend a minimal tarp like that for beginners. I sold that one for a slightly smaller cuben one, then sold that thinking I would save the money to buy a bigger cuben tarp -the BMW BPL nano- now no longer available! (bring it back BPL!)
THEN I tried a whole new system- The gatewood cape. And I umm ….sold that too. Missed my bivy/tarp. Now I have an almost finished Jay Ham spinnaker tarp and am thinking about what to get next.
Have you looked into the SMD Gatewood/serenity shelter?

[Dirk Rabdau]

Tony and David –

Thanks for discussing the merits of the pole setup and your bivy experiences in general. Understanding the rationale for gear choices is a useful exercise; I think the choices you made seem perfectly reasonable. I can completely understand why you chose eVent and why you may elect a lighter bivy in the future.

I often wonder how many of my judgments in regards to the effectiveness of any piece of equipment is influenced by the conditions under which it was tested. I can't say much of my gear has been pushed to or beyond the limits of its construction; so the judgments are basically made within a window of "normal or near ideal" conditions that may hide the true strengths/weaknesses of a product under more extreme conditions. I suspect this is why I have such a tough time finding the right balance between functionality vs. weight vs. price.

I realistically see any bivy/tarp I purchase as a three-season affair here in western Washington (unless on the coast during the winter). Thus the decision to go with a Momementum bivy over eVent is heavily influenced by intended use. I guess weight is a real savings and by the time a few seasons pass, there will be some new bivy that is lighter, better, more breathable, etc.

David, I appreciate you providing me with alternative designs depending upon the intended use, such as the BA three-wire model.

Tony, I really appreciate you sharing your experience and decision rationale, especially as a recent convert from tents to the tarp/bivy combination.

Happy holidays to the both of you and thanks again!

Dirk

[Dirk Rabdau]

Mike –

Thank you for the links and explaining the whole micro-tarp concept. That is really wild, how does it work out of you? Does the micro-tarp concept really keep your gear and cooking area dry, even in a sustained, wind-driven rains?

Do you find the flexibility offered by the tarp setup offsets the relative comfort afforded by a larger tarp? Have you noticed much in the way of condensation after days of rain in your bivy?

How does the knowledge of having a bullet-proof bivy (from a waterproof standpoint) change your hiking? Does the piece off mind offered by this setup make hiking more enjoyable for you, provide you with greater confidence? Do you find that you often miss a fullsize tarp?

Finally, this may be a stupid question but is it appreciably louder inside a bivy being pelted by rain than say, a tent or under a tarp in similar conditions?

Thanks for explaining your strategy regarding this bivy/tarp combo. Do you have any pictures of your setup?

Happy holidays to you and your family!

Dirk

[Dirk Rabdau]

Greg and Roger –

Now there is a tent stuff sack that should be sold on BPL. What am elegant design! It fulfills everything I would want in a stuffsack, most of all, a lack of fuss. What is especially attractive is the fact that the entire stuff-and-struggle approach is abandoned and it is possible to have normal sized hands and successfully manipulate the contents of the stuff sackk.

Greg thank you for urging Roger to post the picture and explain how the gape-mouth stuff sack works! I will have to experiment with making one myself!

Dirk

[Michael Cheifetz]

Dirk,
Well as i said i am new to tarping and biving – have used tents up to this point for years (i currently use a TN Laser which is great).
I actually slept just last night with the micro tarp and bivi combo in hard rain that lasted all night (although sheltered from wind) and temps were high ~55F. I had only a simple fleece, thin socks and sweatpants and woke up in a pool of water but i was dry and all was ok ;)

To be honest i dont feel i have enough input at this stage to give you a serious assesment of what i think….but i will give you my 2cents (DISCLAIMER – all i do is 3 season and no winter bivouacs):
Protection – think about it as if you are sleeping with a bivi standalone…but have some chance of taking your torso out,.. sometimes ;) Nothing stays really dry – but hey – thats part of biviing. It doesnt sound much but is a great differece than being stuffed inside a sack totally. Depending on wind and precip you can do some stuff like change and eat a bit more easily and also temp/humidity management is better since you can open the top of bivi. I wouldnt compare it to a large 8X10 tarp where you might really have space to sit,eat play and have a party (like a duo tarp) but my feelings are that unless you are using a tarptent/GG spinshelter or such which for all practical purposes are tents – you will always get precip/spindrift or whatever in a small solo tarp if the wind really picks up.
I have never used a large tarp so cant really compare but i think it is just a personal choice – I like the concept of bivi for going lightweight for a few nights and i accept the fact i will get a bit wet and maybe cold. The payoff is that i can lie down just about anywhere unlike tent or tarp where you need to think about pitching. I view the micro tarp as that small extra luxury i take that most of the time will make my life nicer but if i can't use it for whatever reason then its still ok.

RE condenstaion – couldnt really say – i havent slept for days on end with this combo.

peace of mind…..well as i said i can only compare to a tent but i can say that now that i have a setup that i can use ANYWHERE even if i cant pitch the tarp makes me smile inside…even though i would really hate being stuffed in the bivi for a downpour w/o the tarp cause its not as fun.
My best advice to you (I didint invent it…) is read the book of the bivy by Ronald Turnbull. its a silly litle book that depicts his adventures with the bivi (no tarp) in scotland for tha past 13 years or so, including few week long crossings – a great read. Mind you – although on the map the mountains there are low its VERY VERY VERY wet windy and cold! The reason i think it will shed more light than anything BPL has to say is that it speaks more of the psychology of the bivi than about gear, weight, technique etc. One sentence from the back cover captures it all "They were the best of nights, they were the worst of nights".
It might be equated to not taking a stove (Ronald doesnt…) or hiking in the dark on purpose to be more tired and other stuff that people do not because they are fun in and of themselves but they afford them something else.
I look at bivi/tarp as something that will make me more miserable in camp – but will pay off in weight and flexibility. If i were to require total weatherproofness i would look elsewhere.

I will try to post a photo (how the heck do you do that here??)

YMMV
Mike

[Michael Cheifetz]

god – i wrote such a long post but didint get this in.
As far as i can tell its noisier…but maybe thats not really it. I would say its more disturbing!
Example – last night i wake up to this flash of bright light and ask myslef who the f#$#k is walking aorund with a flashlight at this time around here….4 seconds later i hear a big bang. it ws lightning and thunder! but when you are wit hyour eyes to the sky it feels like someone is shining a light into your eyes.
And the raindrops hitting your sack are funny as well..
I believe one gets used to it.
Mike

[Paul Tree]

Only using a bivy in winter so far, I put the foam pad under it and inflatable one inside. Trying to decrease condensation against the snow.

It is an ID South Col eVent which is only event on the top (3 layer), and in summer, might worry more about sharpness outside than my sweet bag inside. At 22 oz it is quite heavy, a bombshelter.

[Dirk Rabdau]

Mike –

Thank you for sharing your experiences thus far with the micro tarp/bivy combination. The information you provide is very enlightening, I am glad to hear that this experimentation has proved fruitful in your quest for an ever-lighter pack. Coming from someone who also made the transition recently makes your posts very pertinent.

The book recommendation is also very much appreciated (nice find!). I was actually blessed to do a 100 mile trip through the Highlands a few years back with my mom, although we slackpacked, staying every night in an inn or bed+breakfast along the way. I remember the rain and wind well, even in July, was fairly extensive and on a few of the very worst days, cringed at the idea of setting up a tarptent in an area largely devoid of dry ground and trees. Sure, there were a few gullies, but conditions were less-than-ideal for a UL experience.

That isn't to say there weren't people out there in tents – there were but most were using mountaineering gear from makers such as Hilleberg. Maybe that was more of a function of being in Europe, but the backpackers that I ran into were not of the UL sort but instead gravitated toward the bomb-proof. I can't say I blame them – when it got windy, it was often very windy.

Your comments regarding the "fun" factor of camp is something to which I can relate. I honestly don't enjoy spending time in a tent unless it's a poled-out model with plenty of space – hardly the stuff of light-weight adventures. And seldom does that, as you pointed out, offset the downside of additional weight under most three-season conditions.

Finally, i do appreciate your follow-up post regarding the noise generated from rain on a bivy. Knowing that you found the micro-tarp solution provided enough space for you to cook under and perform other camp chores is something I will definitely consider.

Wait, to insert a picture. Create a post and you should see (to the right and above where you add the Subject line) an "Insert Image at Cursor" button!

Thanks for all of the information. Best wishes to you for you in 2009.

Warmest regards,

Dirk

[Dirk Rabdau]

Paul –

From what I've read the ID bivy is a superior experience in four-season conditions. I understand it's heavier, but I am sure in the snowy conditions, it can't be beat. I have yet to really give winter camping a fair shake, I would have to think on the east side of the Cascades would be a much more hospitable (if colder) test than on the always-damp west side (home of Cascade cement and constant wetness.)

Three three-layer eVent, I imagine, is less susceptible to inadvertent damage than the two-layer used by MLD. The weight penalty, exists, of course, but for winter conditions, it seems as if it is a very good tradeoff.

Can you speak to staking out the bivy as well? I have read that it has several options in this regard.

Thanks!

Dirk

[Turley]

Dirk,
Sorry for the delayed reply. I purchased the Titanium Goat with full head net option for late spring to early fall use w/ tarp in the Olympics. I haven't had it out yet and am still myself which tarp to get. I'm considering the MLD Patrol Shelter (which IMO appears to better equiped for severe rain – and the one I'm leaning towards), the MLD Grace Solo, Bozeman Mountain Works Nano One (do they still make them?), and the one here at BPL (good deal w/ 40% off). I currently use a Gossamer Gear Squall Classic for three season use in the Olympics.
By the way, where abouts are you located? I'm in Kitsap County on the Olympic Penninsula.

Sorry wasn't more of a help.
Christopher

[Dirk Rabdau]

Christopher –

No problem regarding the delay. The TiGoat bivy looks great, I would be most interested to find out how it performs. As for the Patrol Shelter, I've read good things about it. The Olympics can be quite wet, especially in the spring.

I live in Olympia but may up to Pierce Country soon enough.

I certainly have only begun to explore the Olympics, a couple of longer backpacking trips and a number of day hikes. What are some of your favorite backpacking trips?

I went a year ago into the Enchanted Valley, up to the Anderson Glacier then cut across LaCrosse Pass up to the Lower Duckabush. From there a scramble up to Home Sweet Home. From there backtracked to the Duckabush and up to Lake LaCrosse and Hart Lakes then over O'Neil pass and back down toward Anderson Pass. From there back out the Enchanted Valley and down the Quinault River. This past year the washout on thte road added five miles or so to the hike, but the ranger told me it was still popular, as a lot of people still hiked in or rode mountain bikes to the trail head.

For those of you who haven't been to the Olympics, here is a great map overview of the park and its trail systems:

http://www.nps.gov/olym/planyourvisit/upload/wildermapweb.pdf

Thanks Chris! Let me know how your gear works out!

Best of luck in 2009,

Dirk

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