Considering the switch to tarp/bivy

[Dirk Rabdau]

From a tent to a tarp (and bivy), at least part time. This debate has been hashed out here on the forums every so often, and I appreciate the plurality of opinion.

I have a few questions:

1) Looking at tarps such as the MLD Grace Solo Spectralite, I would like to know the relative advantages/disadvantages offered by the tarp dimensions of (6.5 X 5 X 8.75 feet). If there are users of this tarp, I'd like to hear about your experiences.

2) I would consider the Grace Duo, if for no other reason is it shelters two and would provide more room. Is the difference in surface area a concern in higher wind conditions?

3) Bivy, bug net or both? I have seen all kinds of configurations. I live in the Pacific Northwest, do most of my backpacking here but will attempt the PCT this coming season. I've had a number of shelters in my life – my girlfriend brings this up but given the alternative hobby of say, restoring classic cars – backpacking tents are pretty inexpensive by comparison. But I have always disliked the condensation issue associated with single-wall tents (especially problematic in the northwest) plus the issue with putting up and taking down the tent every night.

Bugs are a problem here – the short window of summer can lend itself to some very bugy hikes. I am really interested in finding a bivy that would serve me on the PCT in the event I decided to forgo the tarp for a night.

I appreciate your feedback. I am interested to hear about your experiences, the relative merits of competing products and tips for a successful tarp/bivy experience!

Thanks to all from the cold and snowy Pacific Northwest.

Dirk

[Jeff Jeff]

I am going for the tarp/bivy combo for my PCT hikes next summer. Here are some thoughts…..

Get a cat cut tarp. I'd rather not explain it, but trust me, don't get a flat tarp. Other shaped tarps would also be fine.

Look into a bivy. The tarp will shetler you from direct hits, but blowing mist and spindrift can be a problem. It can also keep the skeeters at bay if it has a bug net window.

You're not going to be sleeping under it for 2000 miles anyways. Okay, you'll probably get a few late season storms and maybe a thunderstorm or two in the Sierra, but you'll mostly be cowboy camping. A water resistant bivy helps here.

[Jeff Jeff]

As for tarp size, a larger one will catch more wind, sag more, and need more supports/guyouts. It also limits the camp sites you can choose. Not by much, but I'd often pass quite a few sites that were *almost* big enough for my Rainbow. Not that there is anything of a shortage of places to camp on the PCT. You'll be hiking along as the sun, just starting to worry because you haven't seen a nice site in an hour, and then you'll come across a perfect site. Every time :)

Oh, and blowing sand can be a problem in socal, so a bivy helps there too.

Whatever you do, get a bivy or a bug bivy for WA. You're right, the bugs can drive you INSANE if all you have is a tarp.

[Dirk Rabdau]

I appreciate the information, especially about the cut and sizing of the PCT. Is there a bivy you've used with built in bug-netting that you recommend? I wouldn't mind one with a hoop or a tie-out, only to keep the netting out of my face.

I am glad i am not the only one who has learned to love the Washington bug situation!

[Turley]

Look into the Titanium Goat Ptarmigan Bivy w/ Full Net Hood. The full net hood will keep the bugs at bay; it's light weight; water resistant; and breaths well. Paired w/ a MLD patrol shelter you have a system weighing approximately 16oz.

[Joseph Reeves]

I live in Southeast Alaska. We have bugs too, though they are in hiding this time of year. I switched to tarps and bivies a number of years ago and have never looked back. Don't discount the simple rectangular tarp. They provide a lot more flexibility, especially in the rain and snow. The flying wedge can't be done with a catenary-tarp. We've bought OWare bivies this year to replace our heavier OR standard bivies — 6.5 oz draw cord. My wife was concerned about bugs with the draw cord, but this hasn't been a problem. She has a long that allows her to slip below the net and use a bag to prop it above her head. There is no reason to go bomb-proof on the bivy fs you are also using a tarp.

This is our 10×10 on the Chilkoot trail.

[Mike Clelland]

For bug and BIVY protection, just get a bivy with a bug-net in the face area. Wear a hot with a brim (baseball cap) and this'll keep the netting off your face.

Also – If you truly have a light pack, you can use that lightness to find a bug free environment (walk past the swamp and walk way up into the high country)

The light pack will add to your skill and ease of picking a nice site.

No need for a wire loop version of a bivy. You might as well take a SUL tarp for the same weight of the poles.

[Adam]

I camp the way Jeff does. I cowboy if there is no threat of precipitation and throw up the tarp during threatening skies.

I recommend the MLD Superlight bivy. $165. Side zip. Silnylon bottom (no need for groundcloth) with a Momentum top. Generous bug window and only 6.3 oz.

I also recommend the MLD Grace Solo plus. I have the silnylon version. For me it came down the MLD and the Oware Cattarp1.1. With the MLD, you get a lot more covered space for a 1 oz penalty. I can cram two under the tarp in a pinch or have a palatial amount of space in a storm.

NOTE: This can mean a larger footprint and more guylines when the wind kicks up. But I have never had an issue with either.

Switching to tarp/bivy is the most rewarding decision I made after going UL.

[Dirk Rabdau]

Chris –

Thanks for the information. Have you given this bivy a go? What are your experiences with it? It certainly is relatively inexpensive and offers options with a full headnet and a window…Does anyone have a comment on either option?

[Dirk Rabdau]

Joseph –

Thanks for the information. I have to imagine as buggy as Washington can get, that SE Alaska is far worse at the height of the bug season due to the amount of rain you receive. How do you like the OWARE equipment you purchased? It's tough to tell from the pictures on their web page. Are you happy with your purchase? Thanks for the information, it is much appreciated!

Dirk

[Dirk Rabdau]

Mike:

I agree, camping out of the low areas is key. In Washington, the issue is that in the high country, mosquitoes are still often an issue because of the number of lakes and late melt-out. Yes, it's far worse in the lower elevations (spend any time in the Gifford Pinchot National Forest during July and you will know what I mean), but even the high country gets its share of mosquitoes. Given your extensive resume, I am sure you've seen far worse. It's obviously very dependent upon the yearly snowpack and the nature of our relatively short summer season.

I appreciate the tip about the ballcap. That would be helpful, especially in attempt to get a few pages in of a small book (a worthy weight tradeoff on a multiday trip).

On a side note, I really enjoy reading many of your posts and articles, especially regarding NOLS. You've changed my opinion about NOLS, which wasn't positive based upon a run-in with some NOLS folks on an early backpacking trip. (I realize now that it wasn't very fair to form an opinion based on one bad day on the trail). Honestly, it left me wondering if the NOLS folks were just insufferable by nature or if they attracted a special breed of hiker/backpacker who I found to be unfriendly and elitist. Honestly, reading about your adventures and those of other NOLS enthusiasts here, makes me consider a trip in the future (alas, getting a month off is a fair trick.)

Finally, please provide us with some information about your favorite loop trips in Idaho, Wyoming and beyond. For my love of this website, I really would like to read more about recommended backpacking trips.

Warmest regards and happy holidays!

Dirk

[Dirk Rabdau]

Adam –

Thank you for the information regarding the MLD products ann explaining your rationale for your choice. I am excited about the possibilities offered by a tarp/bivy combination, the ability to cowboy camp, the greater flexibility and the greater room. Also, as many have mentioned here, is the greater connection they feel with nature.

Is there anything you'd suggest or change about your bivy or tarp? Are there any tips about tarp setup you would care to pass along?

Thanks and happy holidays!

Dirk

[Anonymous]

Very informative thread. Thanks all. BTW, does anybody have any experience with the MLD EVENT Soul Bivy. I am most interested in the durability of the 2 layer EVENT. I am very careful with my gear, but it's a lot of bucks down the drain if the bivy starts to leak despite careful treatment. Any beta much appreciated.

[Jamie Shortt]

Dirk, I switched to a tarp/bivy about a year ago. I really enjoy the light factor and the flexibility it provides. I enjoy cooking my breakfast while hanging out of my sleeping bag. I enjoy the speed in setting up and taking down. One of the best surprises for me was no longer having to deal with condensation. In my Hubba (a great tent) every morning I spent time shaking it out and trying to dry the inside of rain fly which was soaked. My tarp inside is always bone dry when I woke up.

Here is a picture taken 2 days ago (Saturday morning), after a night with minor winds but no rain (it did rain off and on during the day).

In the picture I am using an Integral Designs Silponcho (8.6 oz) and a MLD superlight bivy (6.2 oz). Both are great items, but MLD stuff is really top notch.

This setup got a real test the following night. I camped at Pinnacle in Linville Gorge, NC. It rained for 10 straight hours with winds from 10 to 20 MPH. I slept incredibly thanks to the bivy. It was the first time I zipped it up all the way and attached the cord that pulls the bivy off your face (attached it to the top of my from pole, ie hiking staff).

At 4:00 am in the morning the rain stopped and the winds whipped up, my guess is the gusts hit 50 mph. The tarp and bivy held off the winds and let me get a bit more rest before breaking camp around 6:00am.

The tarp bivy thing is great!

Jamie

[Tony Wong]

Tom,

I have been using the MLD eVent Soul Side Zip Bivy this past year.

I have not been directly rained on with it, as I am under a MLD Poncho Tarp.

I've taken the bivy out on about 20 days and nights this year….even snow camping too and I have not noticed any damage or delamination on the eVent fabric.

What I can tell you is that the eVent does an fantastic job of keeping the condensation out of my bivy.

I have only had condensation problems once with the bivy, but that was more due to dew point issues vs. the eVent fabric.

My friend, Jeremy, has the MLD Superlight, made of momentum fabric, which is very water resistant too.

Unless you are getting hammered by lots of rain, the less expensive Superlight would cover most of the normal 3 season conditions.

That said, I do love the generous amount of bug netting that is on the Soul Zip….over all workmanship from Ron is fantastic.

Also, if you are a side sleeper or have a "puffy" bag, get the "wide" option, which I have. My friend, Jeremy, has the same bag that I do, Marmot Helium 15F bag, and he is pretty snug in his regular size Superlight bivy.

If you get the eVent Bivy from Ron, stuff it solid with sleeping bags and blankets. This really makes it easier to seam seal the whole thing by yourself by giving you nice straight lines to work on applying seam sealer.

Hope that helps.

-Tony

P.S. If you want to see photos of my bivy, go to the photo gallery and check out Emigrant Wilderness. There are photos of Jeremy's Superlight too.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=16654

[Dirk Rabdau]

Tom and Tony –

I find the discussion regarding the Momentum vs. EPIC fabric and the merits of sidezip vs. traditional to be really informative. I am particularly interested in the wide option as a side sleeper. This would appeal to me, as someone who can barely keep still during the night, I have always been concerned with that "coffin" like feeling a bivy might have.

How is bivy volume affected by the presence of sleeping pad / inflatable. Obviously, these are supposed to be used inside the bivy, but is there any restriction as to the type that are recommended under such a circumstance?

Thanks for discussing the merits of width and fabrics, tips for seam sealing and the photos!

Dirk

[Joseph Reeves]

Dirk, we are very happy with Oware. We own two Oware bivies and two of his tarps — the 10×10 and the Pyramid shown below. They are well constructed and have held up to prolonged use. The drawcord bivy cost about $100 either through Oware or BPL including shipping. An advantage of the drawcord is that it can be easily repaired in the field, unlike a zipper. Not that we have had this as an issue.
The 10×10 tarp weighs 18 oz and has been used on beaches and in the forest with no problems. Takes a wrap around a limb much better than I expected. The 9×9 pyramid is a great winter and rainy season shelter at 26 oz. It is 6' tall and can go higher with more space off the ground – duh! Great in windy conditions.

[Anonymous]

Tony,
Many thanks for the detailed and very useful info. I would be using a bivy in widely varied conditions, from the Sierra to Olympic NP, so I would probably go with EVENT. I was primarily concerned with durability issues, but also breathability because I use a down bag almost exclusively and want to minimize moisture buildup as much as possible. You've given me pretty much what I need to go on.
Cheers,
Tom

[Dirk Rabdau]

Jamie –

Nice photos! Thanks for sharing with us your setup. I agree with your thoughts on the Hubba, I really did love this tent except of the weight, which wasn't bad but hard to justify compared to a tarptent. I must admit it seemed wonderful compared to a lot of the single wall shelters I've used, as condensation was always an issue (even in the Hubba), especially when the weather wasn't cooperative (little wind and rainy). Plus the setup wasn't very fussy.

There is a certain sense of false security offered by a tent. Yes, those few one-hundredths of an inch of silnylon aren't going to stop anything, but does provide a peace of mind that I found comforting on solo trips, even if it was a mere illusion! The Hubba, with its poles, offered even more security and was probably less fussy than learning the art of silnylon tent setups.

How easy is it to extract yourself from your bivy/bag during the night when nature calls? The idea of performing gymnastic moves in the dark doesn't hold much appeal. Does the side-zip do better in this regard?

Could you speak to the ease of setting up and tearing down compared to a traditional tent? I don't mind setting up in the evening, but I REALLY dislike the whole clearing out of camp process, especially battling the tent stuff sack. I suppose a tarp would be less problematic because off the smaller square footage.

Thanks,

Dirk

[Dirk Rabdau]

Tom –

I'd agree that you would want something very water resistant at Olympic National Park. When the clouds stack up in the valleys and you find yourself camped in one thick gray mass, I would appreciate a little more moisture resistance. This is a concern with even a tarp, it won't do anything to stop high moisture situations. To be fair, I found my single wall tent didn't do anything either; it was an impossible situation that lead to a very damp bag by morning.

On eVent, my only concern with this level of investment is the arms-race nature of UL Equipment. Just when you get something to enjoy, something new is invented that weights half as much, offers twice the performance and four times the price! I suppose this is less a condemnation of equipment evolution and more of my own inability to quell my gear lust.

Thanks for the information and your input on this thread!

Dirk

[Dirk Rabdau]

Joseph –

Nice pics!You should send your photos to Oware as your pics do a better job of showing their products in action than those on the Oware website.

I do have an interest in a two-person tarp. The pyramid looks very interesting, how does it perform in the wind? Do you find the relative height of it cuts down on condensation?

How breathable is the Oware bivy? Do you use down sleeping bags or synthentic? Are they very water resistant?

Thanks for all of the fine information! Stay dry up there!

Dirk

[Joseph Reeves]

The pyramid is great in the wind if staked well and set taught. No condensation problems for us, even when it is in the 60's and rainy, if there is sufficient ventilation under the tarp. We use synthetic bags in summer and my wife uses a down bag in winter. Good breathability, and she is a furnace. The bug net doesn't have cover like other bivy bags, so there is always a good deal of ventilation. Again, under the tarp the lack of a cover and bomb proof top really doesn't matter. The bottom is waterproof and we often don't use our tyvek ground cloths. I don't have any experience with a double bivy — I stink too much after a week outside and want to maintain a good relationship with my wife — but, if it is as good as the ours it will be fine.

As to staying dry. We've had sun and temps in the teens the past 10 days. It is due to weather in SEA that has forced us to cancel a trip to the Tucson area — no flight yesterday and we can't get a seat until the weekend, so its not worth the trip. Instead we will use a Forest Service Cabin for a few days and then do a night or two out in the cold.

[Jamie Shortt]

Dirk, Getting in and out of the bivy is not a problem at all at night. Unzip, slide out do your stuff then slide back in. Though depending on the weather I use different tricks … pee out the side of tarp, pee into a bottle or ziplock bag.

Now onto setup and take down…strange you ask this because I timed myself taking down what you see in the above picture. It took me under 3 nonrushed minutes to take down and put the all items into a stuff sack (tarp, bivy, stake, & line). This included wiping down each tent stake and undoing the all the lines from the tarp. Putting it up takes alittle bit longer but not much. You do have to be carefull with where you set it up compared to a freestanding tent like the Hubba which is easy to move if you find a big rock poking your back:)

Jamie

[Anonymous]

Dirk,
I've weenied out as far as the Olympics are concerned: I just sprang for Henry's Scarp 1. A lot of bucks, but if it works I'll probably use that for soggy situations and go with Tony's suggestion and get the Momentum fabric bivy for the Sierra, Pasayten, etc. Lighter, cheaper, and I won't get bummed out when something new that weighs half as much comes out a month later. I hear you on that one. Been there done that. Gear lust is a terrible affliction…
Thanks for starting this thread. We both got a lot out of it, I'd say.
Tom

[Dirk Rabdau]

Joseph –

I am sorry to hear that your Tuscon trip got scuttled by this blast of snow. We have received quite a bit of snow here in the Puget Sound. My flight out of SeaTac was canceled by Alaska Airlines today, but I had already decided to forgo a trip to the airport as they were out of de-icer and it would have been fruitless to make the trip this morning. By afternoon, I learned that a lot of flights had been resumed. But trying to get through to Alaska Airlines? Next to impossible!

I do appreciate the confession about why you don't employ a double bivy. I think the uninitiated always imagine backpackking with their partner as a "romantic" purusit. I would tell them that there are few things less romantic than being unwashed for three or four days while hiking through driving rain. I used to be the hard-drivin' guy hiker type. (This isn't sexist, there are a lot of women who blow past me on the trail and are far better hikers than I.) But I would take perfectly kind girlfriends and make them HATE me after two or three days on the trail because I would ALWAYS be too aggressive in terms of mileage, gain/loss and a "goal at all costs" attitude.

Thanks for providing all that good information about your tarp/pyramid and the bivy. This gives me a lot to consider… I hope you do get to warmer climes in the near future unhampered by the weather on the way there!

Thank you again for all of your help, sharing your experiences, the great photos and your advice! It was very helpful!

Happy holidays!

Dirk

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