Newbie help for 6 year old child backpack

[Darryl Romm]

Hi

This is my first post, and as I cannot find any area of this forum to introduce myself, I’ll do it here.

My name is Darryl and I live in London UK. I have recently joined this forum as it seems to be the most friendly and informative one that I have managed to find. I am a complete novice at backpacking and I really sought ‘light’ backpacking as my intention is to hike/backpack with my 6 year old son, Oliver. I just believed that I may well be carrying 2 loads at any one time hence the need for light. I would imagine 1 or 2 nights wild camping would be plenty to start off with.

My main reason for this posting is the research of backpacks for my son. He has CamelBak Min Mule and that really fits him properly, but is way too small for hiking. It seems to me that the Deuter Fox 30 will be a good fit (it may be too big on his waist [22 inches], but I am under the impression here that this may not be such an issue). However the weight of the pack itself is something I am not too happy with.

I have looked, and spoken to MLD re: Prophet 2009, but I believe it may be too big. My son’s torso length is only 12.5 inch and he is certainly not 4ft 9inches (is this pack for older kids – I get the impression from this forum that may not be the case)? It’s a shame though as the weight is great.

The Osprey Imp does not seem to get a mention on this site so I am left in the dark on that one.

I would really like the MontBell Versalite 20 to work, but again, from this site it seems it is just going to be too big.

Am I incorrect to have an issue with the Deuter Fox’s weight as most here that actually own it seem more than happy with for their kids?

Thanks in advance

[J B]

Hello and welcome.

Maybe a small GoLite Ion works? I think they have a table for torso length on their website.

[JASON CUZZETTO]

I started my youngest son, at 7 years old, with a Golite Jam. This pack works really great for the smaller hiker.

Purchase a women's small. They come in 'boy' colors so he won't know it is a womens version.

We had a little trouble with the hip belt fit at first. So we flipped the hip belt up through the lower part of the shoulder straps and around.

Also, I tend to find these packs for around $60.00 US around and after Christmas on clearance. Always a good deal.

[Rod Lawlor]

Hi Daryl,

Hiking with my kids was also my driver for moving into lightweight hiking.

I've bought and customised a few packs for my two kids (now 9 and 7) since we started overnight bushwalking when the oldest was 2.

First, for the average 6 yr old, the Deuter Fox is over size, over built, over weight and over volume. It probably works for about a 8-11 yr old, but it would still be overweight.

Before you choose a pack, have a think about what you want him to carry, and how much he reasonably can. He probably can't carry all his gear, so what do you want him to carry and why. For the weight and distance he can walk, he may be best to use his current school or day care backpack. Of course this doesn't make him a real bushwalker and is no where near as much fun for you!

The biggest problem I've had with trying to use adult packs is the size of straps and harnessing, rather than length of the bag, although 12.5" is pretty short. Kids packs will offer thinner straps, with the shoulder straps closer together. (Women's packs offer something in between) The sack will generally be narrower. I wouldn't focus too much on a hipbelt, since most six yr olds don't have hips (well defined iliac crests anyway)

I'd generally be looking for something around the 15-20L volume.

Tatonka have a couple of kids packs which weigh in around 450-550g.

Vaude also do a couple of adult size lightweights, the Mini Rock Comfort 16L and Ultralight comfort 25L (They used to do a 20L but I can't find it on their site)

Good luck, and enjoy.

Rod

[Doug Johnson]

Good article here: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/lightweight_backpacking_gear_kids.html

Best of luck finding a pack- I'll be reading carefully! At 2 1/2 my son's been on 6 backpacking trips, but I'm still carrying him. :-)

[Darryl Romm]

Yes I've already followed that thread and was really sold on the MB Versalite 20.

Then I read this:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/montbell_versalite_20_backpack_spotlite_reveiw.html

So sort of dismissed it.

At the moment the Tatonka Mowgli looks most suitable other than the fact that it is adorned with skull & crossbones in blue and would be considered too babyish by him.

Rod: I would like him to be able to carry a down sleeping bag 800gsm [1lb 12oz], mat [open to advise here], waterproof jacket/trousers, spare clothes, toy/game and water {again open to be advised on the quantity].

EDIT: Rod you have indicated that the length of the pack is not the main issue in your experience but rather the size of straps and harnessing.

Going back to MB Versalite 20

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/montbell_versalite_20_backpack_spotlite_reveiw.html

Perhaps I should not be so quick to dismiss it.

After all it has been used by Jay Ham

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/lightweight_backpacking_gear_kids.html

very successfully with her 8 year old 58 pound daughter. Oliver is 7 in February and weighs about 56 pound.

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

My so used the Fox 30 for a couple years and loved it.

Yes it is over built – and that is a GOOD thing. Lets face it: boys are rough on gear. When he outgrew it last year I sold the pack for about 70% of its retail price even though he had used it for many, many trips. It held up – not one stitch blew.

The suspension is top class. Oh yes, that is where a lot of the weight sits. And that again is a VERY GOOD thing for growing children.

I have said this many, many times: cut the weight of the gear inside for the kids, not the pack itself. Protect their growing muscles and bones from an ill fitting, under padded, no suspension pack. As adults we know what fits our own bodies but kids cannot tell you that – and worse is a pack that hurts their neck/shoulders or back….guess who gets to carry that pack when the kid has a meltdown and crying session? Yeah, the adult.

A good suspension will alleviate the chance of pain.

Yes, you cannot deny that the Fox 30 weighs 2.6 lbs but lets be frank here – old school Kelty packs for kids weigh nearly 4 lbs (the external frame one as well as the Kelty Storm). So the weight of the Fox is a great trade off.

All I am saying is buy the best gear you can for your kids, but keep a realistic eye on what you get comfort wise/durability when cutting weight. A non-whiny kid is priceless on long hard trips. Even with a heavier pack Ford still had one of the lightest packs out there. Yet I never once carried his pack for him ;-)

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

Kids should still wear a hipbelt! It keeps the pack where it should be, same with a sternum strap. And don't let a kid fit their pack either – do it with them, asking how everything feels as you tighten it down.

No hipbelt can easily equal a kid waltzing down the trail with a pack swinging back and forth (like they do at school) which can lead quickly to sore shoulders and backs.

[Darryl Romm]

I hear you. But with the fox 30 if I want to keep the weight to around 10% of his body weight it gives me 52oz to play with on gear.

Sleeping Bag = 29oz – new so really not looking to replace
Waterpoof Jacket = 09oz – Can be improved I'm sure.
Prolite 4 Small = 17oz – Not bought yet, but any suggestions.

No water proof trousers or change of clothing here.

So the Fox 30 is restrictive to me, but perhaps it is sensible.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated

Is 10% the correct % to choose?

[Joshua Billings]

I started my 4 year old son with a REI flash. He only carried about 4-5 lbs including water with the cool hydration hose:sleeping bag(REI sub kilo), sleeping pad, water, small toy and minimal extra clothes.Granted we only walked 2-3 miles and took lots of breaks.I would have liked if the shoulder straps had more padding but it actually fit pretty good. I am now upgrading to the REI comet since he is now six. It may be a little big for him for a year but his sister used one when she was seven and it fit great.

[Brian Barnes]

Awesome photos Josh! What a trail bustin' gang…

[Roman Ryder]

I almost ordered my girls some Comets the other day. They're on sale and I had a coupon for an additional $20 off. I kept reading reviews about problems with the "windowpanes" though. I think I'm just going to wait until I can get them into an REI to try on some packs. If you find something you really like, let me know!

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

One area you can cut weight on with kids is pads. Just get a Z-Lite pad and cut it down a couple section to make shorter. The pad will keep them toasty warm, they can't deflate it on accident, it can be washed off if filthy and at the kids weight they don't need the cushion that inflatable pads give adults. Another benefit is they don't roll off the Z pads like the inflatable ones middle of the night.

It will save the kid plenty of weight.

Don't overthink it though. Kids still need to be able to have room for a book, a toy – things to occupy them if they get lonely or scared at night. A 6 year old in good shape can carry a well fitted pack with 8-10 lbs total and be quite happy.
At 6 you will still need to carry some of their stuff (ie…you are carrying all the group gear like the tent, kitchen, etc) and you will be carrying their food as well.

At 6 carrying a pack, pad, sleeping bag, clothes, toy, snacks, sandals and rain gear is pretty much it.

But hey, train them right and by 9 they can carry a lot more of the communal gear. After all, that is why the adults go light – then you don't notice carrying their food!

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

This is Ford in 2005:

On The Wonderland, this shot shows how the pack fits a kid who is 7, near turning 8:

This is the same pack on him this past summer (2008) before we sold it. At 10 1/2 he was too tall for it except for as a daypack (he is within a 1" of me now at 11):

[Doug Johnson]

I really like a torso-length pad for a kid. My son uses a BMW Torsolite (sold on this site) which will be great for many years to come.

[First Last]

When I took my son out backpacking for the first time he was seven. And I carried pretty much everything.

He had his little school backpack and in it he had a book, snack, toy, jacket and a bottle of water.

What I remember most about it is how long it took to walk that mile and a half. Lots of stopping and looking, touching and playing. It was great :)

A year later he carried the kitchen, all three ounces of Pocket Rocket and the titanium pot.

At ten he stepped up to carrying his own sleeping bag, pad, and clothes. That just left me with what I normally carry on a solo trip.

By the time he's fifteen I hope he'll carry the tent and food, leaving me with a truelly light load :)

[Mark Verber]

Myself and several of my friends started our kids out using their school book bags. We packed they packs to be 15% body weight and which has a volume which filled their pack. When this kids got a bit larger there were a number of approaches. I got a Fox 30 for my daughter, and she loved it. It is over built, and excessively heavy… but it's a good volume and carries well. Several of the girls switched to small torso external frame packs. On some lists people have talked about tough traveler kids packs but I have no experience with them.

I said I wish MLD was still making the kid's prophet. I purchased a kids pack prototype from Ron. It is always the first pack that gets borrowed when we are supplying other family for group trips. But someone pointed out that the size XS Prophet should work for kids, so I get there is a good option from MLD.

[Darryl Romm]

I was under the impression that the XS Prophet was intended for kids, although larger than my 6 year old. However I have also seen that the Prophet XS is suitable for kids up to 11. Of course everything is dependant on the actual child.

http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=106&osCsid=da9c978f1e266fc7ee7174fe81abcd53

ps. How do i post links that work in this forum?

[Brad Groves]

Hey- I have no kids, but I am a dealer for both Deuter and Osprey. For the record, the Osprey Imp and Jib are awesome kids packs. If you have a shop near you that carries them, I'd have him try them on. Down to a 13" torso, w/the Imp having a ~19" hipbelt and the Jib having a ~21" hipbelt. If the Jib worked all right for your son, it would give him a bit more growing room (torso and pack volume-wise). The packs are supportive and super adjustable.

Both of the Osprey packs seem a bit more "kid-sized" to me than the Deuter. The Fox 30 hipbelt, for example, is ~24" (versus the above numbers). The Fox 30 shoulder straps are 16" long; the Imps are 8" and the Jibs are 11".

Like Sarah, I think a decent frame/suspension is important for kids. And the more comfortable they are, the happier you'll all be. Also, kids can wear down a bit more quickly than us; a properly adjusted hipbelt can help take that load off their shoulders–maybe even get you two miles instead of 1.5!

Good luck, and welcome to the forums!

[Darryl Romm]

Okay I'm slowly but surely getting there. I'm pretty much sold on decent frame/suspension.

You have to understand I'm in the UK. We just don't cater for our kids in the same manner that seems apparent to me in US.

I could buy Fox 30 online, or travel about 75 miles to try it on. I reckon at my expense I might be able to return the Fox, but only if it is not deemed 'special order'.

I would have to say that the Imp is going to be fine with the only real downside being that I might have to pay out quicker than I would perhaps like to for a replacement when he has outgrown it. The Jib may or may not be too big.

Oliver is 3ft 8inches tall, has a torso of 12.5-13inch and hip measurement of 22inch. On paper the Imp is a no brainer apart from:

What is 1400cu inches? Will that allow me to get a a packed sleeping bag 5.8 x 11.5 at the bottom plus his rain jacket and trousers and some clothes etc. It is considerably smaller in volume than the Jib (2100cu inches), and the Fox 30 (1850cu inches) for very little weight differential over the Fox.

Basically I would really appreciate feedback on what I could expect to get into this pack and what kind of weight it would be. I would use the sleeping mat straps

However the real issue is that Osprey UK have told me that they are not expecting delivery until earliest March 09. That applies to the Imp & the Jib, and as far as I can see no one particularly stocks them in the UK anyway, so it would have to be a special order with no chance of return.

I also note that the Osprey's can be attached to certain adult packs should the need arise:-(

Brad do you fancy shipping to UK?

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

I wouldn't go under say 1800 ci – while it seems like a lot it isn't – especially if you buy lightweight but bulkier items to go in.

For instance, I did not buy my son a down bag at that age due to my fear of getting it wrecked and that he was growing so fast. So from 5-9 he slept in a North Face Tigger bag that is designed for kids under 5 ft. It is a synthetic but still light. It fit perfectly across the bottom of the bag in its stuff sack.

That is something to make sure will work – that his gear fits inside. The REI Comet (hope I am thinking of the right one!) was narrower than the Fox and wouldn't take the bag across the bottom, so it ate up more space.

A sleeping bag will eat up a good 1/3rd of a kids pack right off the bat. Especially if your kid has a lower temp rating bag (Ford always has a 15 to 20* bag except in winter when we pull out the winter bags).

[Barry P]

“Prolite 4 Small = 17oz – Not bought yet, but any suggestions.”

I love the Prolite 4 small. Mine comes in at 16oz. I think its comfort is on par with the Woman’s Prolite 4 reg.

My 12 year old daughter has used the torso pad for 4 years http://www.gossamergear.com/cgi-bin/gossamergear/nightlight_torso.html (3.5oz). Even when we car camp she prefers that over any other mat and I can’t figure out why. Maybe it’s like her Teddy Bear or security blanket.

I don’t know how kids (or even adults) use it. I need extra padding when I use it. But she’s hooked. She prefers the nightlight over the zrest for comfort (and it’s lighter!).

When my daughter was 8, I would just carry most of the gear (tent, some clothes, food, water, kitchen, first aid, etc.,) and let her carry the pad, poncho (2oz), snacks, water, frisbie (or some other high-activity running toy needed during rest break). With some kids, we had to let them run around to get the energy out or they would be way in front of us :(. Her pack weight stayed under 6 lbs.

At 12, she now carries everything needed for a solo hike. She likes independence. And it’s never over 12 lbs for her 110lb 5’6” body.

I know you said you don’t want to switch out the sleeping bag but that weight could be cut in half with a down quilt. My daughter loves the Western Mountaineering POD30 (18oz 30F) but a quilt would be cheaper.

I love those pics Sarah and Josh!

-Barry

[Mary D]

I went through exactly the same frustration when my grandchildren became old enough to backpack. Kids' backpacks all seem to be made with bombproof super-heavyweight nylon, with lots and lots of pockets, really heavy zippers and lots of basically decorative junk. When the pack itself weighs half of the recommended weight for the child–not because of its structure but because of the gewgaws–that's equivalent of a 15-lb. empty pack for an adult carrying 30 lbs.! To me, that's unconscionable! If they would make just a simple nylon pack bag (like the MLD Kids' Prophet) on the frame of a Deuter Fox, you'd have a really great pack for a kid, probably about 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 pounds. If you have sewing skills (I don't), you could try doing this. You'd have to throw the Deuter packbag away, so this process would be less expensive if you could find a used one. In fact, unless your son has a younger sibling to inherit the pack when it's outgrown, you should look for a used pack anyway. Depending on how fast he grows, whatever you get for him now (or next year) will be outgrown in 2-3 years, anyway–an argument for finding a used pack.

I agree with Sarah that kids need good structure in their packs. A 170-lb. adult man can easily carry 15 lbs. total pack weight in a frameless pack, without a hipbelt–it's less than 9% of his body weight. The same pack on a 45-lb. six-year-old would be 33% of his body weight. Put another way, that 15 lbs. on an adult would be 4 lbs. on a 45-lb. kid. If the 170-lb. man is going to carry much more than 15 lbs., he will undoubtedly want more structure in his pack to remain comfortable.

The big complaint of kids with packs without hipbelts and a good weight-transferring structure is the shoulder straps' cutting into the tops of their shoulders. My first backpack was at age 6, back in the days when no packs had hipbelts (adults used a "tump line" around their foreheads to help support the weight) and my pack didn't even have padded straps. I still remember vividly my sore shoulders, with total pack weight of 5 lbs.! My eldest grandson complained of the same thing as a 5-year-old, with a 4.5 lb. total pack weight and well-padded shoulder straps.

Unless your son is unusually big for his age, I don't think you are going to find a backpack (as opposed to a daypack) that fits him, They're going to be a little too big and therefore probably hang from his shoulders. He will probably grow into the Deuter Fox in another year. My grandkids used daypacks at ages 5 and 6, which was enough for their extra clothing, rain gear, snacks, water bottle and a toy or two. This brought total pack weight up to 5-6 pounds, which is probably all you want for a beginning 6-year-old anyway. Remember that you want his early backpacking experiences to be fun for him. Get him hooked on backpacking, first, and load him up later. Unfortunately, that means loading you up, but the first trips should be only a few miles anyway.

However, finding even a daypack that is supportive and fits the age 4-8 set is a major undertaking. Most school packs are too big for young kids (they hang down well below their buttocks) and don't have hip belts. I finally found a really good one, the Granite Gear Sidekick, which has well-padded shoulder straps, a partly padded hipbelt and a weight transfer structure (foam pad) that is good enough for 5-6 lbs. It has been used by two grandkids and will be inherited by grandchild #3 who just turned 4. It isn't big enough to hold a sleeping bag (at least not a synthetic bag) but will comfortably hold everything I described above. Now the really bad news: Granite Gear has discontinued that pack! You might check on ebay or various forums to see if anyone has a used one for sale. I considered Tatonka and at the Tough Traveler Super Padre, but ended up with the Sidekick. I noticed that the Tatonka Mowgli has the option of a pirate pattern–would your boy be comfortable with that? You could always remove the teddy bear.

Last summer, when Gossamer Gear was clearing out their Mariposa backpacks, I bought two small ones. My grandkids (now 7 and 9) will be getting them for Christmas. The small size in the older model (not the newer one, unfortunately) fits down to 12" torso length. WIth the stays and the stiff pad in the back, they are plenty supportive. In fact, I'd have gotten one for me except that they are a little too narrow in the shoulders (which is good, for the kids). The packs weigh 18 oz. and should last until they grow into adult size. Unfortunately, their capacity is a little too big, but the small size Miniposas were gone by the time I discovered the sale. They can be compressed a lot smaller with the provided bungee cords. 7-year-old "little" sister is as big as and a better athlete than her older brother, so she'll be big enough for the new pack. In fact, I'll have to give her as much weight as her brother (will be about 8-9 lbs. with sleeping bag and pad added) so he can keep up with her! As you can see, a lot depends on the individual child! Again, this pack won't help you until a couple of years later, since the 2009 Gossamer Gear packs will start at 13" torso length in the small size.

A couple of good articles on backpacking with kids, although not much help with gear:
http://www.backpacking.net/kids.html (skip past the part about babies)
http://www.the-ultralight-site.com/backpacking-with-children.html

A couple of things: Unless your boy has been dry at night for several years, I'd really hesitate to use a down bag. The stress and excitement of being out in the woods is liable to bring on middle-of-the-night accidents (I speak from bitter experience here!) and/or digestive upsets (more experience!). Second, I've found that the little things are often more interesting to the kids than scenery. One one trip last summer, following a 6-week unit on insects in 2nd grade, my grandson (and "little" sister) were basically uninterested in any wildlife larger than a beetle, but they studied insects for hours! They did get distracted by one of our oversized Pacific Northwest slugs, but quickly returned to observing an anthill. Finally, I agree with those who prefer the cut-down Z-rest, Ridgerest or similar foam pad. Lots lighter, and kids don't need the inflatable. Thermarests don't take too well to being bounced on!

[Darryl Romm]

I'm trying to digest all that is being posted here, and each and every post creates a new slant for me. For those that are following this thread I'll post this link for on the Osprey Imp.

http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/Packs/Internal%20and%20External%20Framed%20Backpacks/Osprey%20Imp%20Youth%20Pack/Owner%20Review%20by%20Ray%20Estrella/

When I look at the picture posted in this thread of Ford just turning 8 wearing the Fox he seems to wear it well by comparison to the 9 year olds wearing the Osprey Imp. Obviously I don't know the height of Ford in that photo, but I do know Oliver [44 inches] is 9 inches shorter than the 2 kids carrying those Imps.

[Mary D]

Darryl, I wish I could help more, but as I pointed out, I've been equally frustrated!

It appears that Sarah's son Ford is larger than average for his age, similar to my almost 7-year-old granddaughter! Sarah could tell you more. Unless your 6-year-old son is also unusually large for his age, and it doesn't appear from your description that he is, he's probably going to be too small for packs designed for 8-9 year-olds. That's why I suggested you look for a well-fitting daypack with hip belt at this point and wait for a backpack for another year or two. I looked at the Osprey Imp (handsome pack!), and it looks to be about the same size as the Deuter Fox. It's also, unfortunately, about the same weight.

We've all come up with a lot of opinions here, but you need to go with whatever works best for your son. IMHO, it would be worth it–either in travel expense or in return shipping costs–either to travel to a retail store that carries these packs or to order several packs for your son to be sure whatever you get fits him properly, returning the ones that don't work out. Packs, like shoes, need to be individually fitted.

Kids grow so fast that you can't expect the same pack to last your son more than 2-3 years. Maybe from age 8-9 to the onset of adolescence, but no longer.

[Author]

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