Winter weight – need to loose some pounds!

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Mike

> > NONE of our overtrousers have side zips. That's deliberate.
> Really, In winter… why?

Several reasons, including the obvious ones of reducing weight and eliminating the long leak strip the zip represents. Yes, I have had overtrousers with full-length zips – gave them away.

But also because in many cases the loose 70 d PU-coated nylon overtrousers can be slipped over some of our joggers with just a little care. So why have a zip – which can fail in the cold? The trousers breathe well enough, being PU-coated.

When skiing I do have to slip my ski boots off, one at a time, to get the trousers on. So? It only takes a moment, and anyhow donning the trousers is often done before I get out of the tent in the morning. The photo here shows Sue wearing hers.

Also, without a zip, those overtrousers roll up really small, and there's no zip to damage by too tight folding.

Finally, these Peter Storm overtrousers cost about US$10 over the web. They last for years.

Cheers

[Mike Clelland]

Roger,

It's interesting to see your decision making. You have a different set of variables and goals.

I am usually in a teaching situation when I do the LONG trips in the winter in the mountains (with NOLS). When I winter camp, I concern myself (in this order) with personal comfort, efficiency and then (finally) lightweight.

1. COMFORT
3. EFFICIENCY
3. LIGHTWEIGHT

The ability to have a zip on pant system is (for me) really helpful in the comfort and efficiency department. Taking off boots is tricky, because the snow is very powdery and the fresh stuff on top is often hip deep.

You note that the zippers leak heat. Maybe a little, but at times, that's exactly what I want. Using the side zip pants I can vent heat very efficiently. Skinning uphill, I open up all my zippers and thermo-regulate without removing many clothes, and skiing down hill, I zip up and save that heat loss.

When I winter camp in the Northern Rockies, I never bring a tent (sometimes a tarp) so I cook outside.

I'll add that I also bivy out under the stars if the weather is calm. And the calmest night's are usually the coldest. My record for sleeping out, no shelter, no ground cloth, no bivi-sack is about 38 below zero. I have a VERY warm down sleeping bag.

===

I cook outside in a snow kitchen, and I usually sleep in a snow shelter. I am VERY fast at digging, and I can create a home pretty quick.

When I work for the school I will often base camp near pristine ski terrain, spending up to four nights in one spot.

The areas I will travel are in the Northern Rockies (the Absorokas, the Tetons, the Gros Ventres, the Snake River Range, etc). Camping is between 9 and 11 thousand feet at a northern latitude in the heart of winter (the sun goes down early, so a lot happens at night with a headlamp).

30 below zero is NORMAL at night. I've had 8 feet of snow fall during a 9 day course. I will be with a team of up to 14 or so, teaching winter skills. Last year we out in a major winter storm, our team (13 total) got stuck in snow shelters for 5 full days at 10,000 feet in Grand Teton National Park.

The gear I take (and ths students too) is NOT lightweight. I simply cannot sacrifice safety and comfort (I need to monitor novice winter students in a COLD environment).

I'll add that I have skied some of the most amazingly perfect Rocky Mountain champaign powder, on long 2000 vertical feet runs, day after day, in the deep wyoming back-country, with a team of beginners – and then skied back to base camp (by headlamp), stood upright in the deluxe snow kitchen, brewed up a pot of Hot Chocolate with fresh Ginger – Eaten a greasy fried load of cheezy tortillas (with beans and rice and frozen chili peppers) – Sat around with the students (mug of hot tea in hand) and looked up at the trillions of stars as we re-lived the day – and then climbed into the igloo, warm, stuffed and tired – WHEW! (I'm gettin' all excited as I write this!)

===

ALSO – I am gunna post a FULL gear list in the GEAR SHEET section of the forums…

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Mike

> You have a different set of variables and goals.
Yes, and obviously VERY different conditions!

> Taking off boots is tricky, because the snow is very powdery and the fresh stuff on top is often hip deep.
Sigh. We just don't have powder here in Oz. In general, stomping will make my boots sink in less than a foot.

> You note that the zippers leak heat.
Ah, no, what I meant was that they can leak water and wind!
In the middle of the afternoon the surface of the snow here can be wet, if it's sunny. Turns to ice when the sun goes down of course! All very marginal these days.

> When I winter camp in the Northern Rockies, I never bring a tent (sometimes a tarp) so I cook outside.
Sigh. The photo doesn't show the wind. Doing about 40 mph at the time. Next night was *that* night when the wind clocked well over 60 mph, and got higher later.

I guess the point I am trying to make here is that what works in one situation may not work in another – and may even be fatal. Dry powder snow and still nights – not in Australia (nor in Scotland!).

Cheers

[Brian Barnes]

Richard – Thanks so much for all the great information. I know others have said it, but you’re a wonderful resource to members of the community. I revised my clothing list, taking into consideration your recommendations. Check it out and let me know if it looks more appropriate. Keep in mind that the average low’s are reported to be 10F. I think what I have put together should work out fine. However, the last two times this group has gone to Leadville in March the temps have reached 0F!

As mentioned before I plan to test this system out a few times before heading to Colorado. If we end up experiencing 0 F degree weather I’ll bet we climb into our down bags at night or get an early start in the morning.

Changes I made include: removed the Montbell Alpine light jacket and replaced it with the Feathered Friends Volant jacket. I added a 200 wt fleece pant (Power Dry) to the legs section and kept the Patagonia Micropuff since in all honestly, I just can’t afford to buy both the Volant jacket and pant set…. (totaling to $530). I’ll have to find a way to make due on my legs with what I have listed to keep the cost down.

Mike – I know you are going to ask where my dressing room for the 200 wt fleece pants are. ; ) These will only be used after we setup our shelter. If needed I’ll quickly remove my softshell, add the fleece and micropuff pants, then add the softshell on top. Most likely, these will only be used for in camp insulation.

Roger – Thanks for giving your perspective on the issue of side zip pants. It’s very helpful to get perspectives of another experienced winter outdoorsman. I hadn’t thought about zipper failure – that could be a very unfortunate issue while out.

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