MYOG Titanium/Carbon Fiber Ice Axe

[Denis Hazlewood]

Steve,

Let me think about that: 300 feet, times 12 inches, divided by, say, 2.5 inches per ice axe, equals 1440. Would you have to quit your day job?

[Steven Evans]

Disregard all other talk about revisions and versions…this is officially "Version 2".

I made the spike and ferrule out of tubing this time around. I only made one of each so I just made them myself. Definitely faster to machine/cut but I haven't gone out for quotes yet so I am not sure how much cheaper they are in larger quantities.

Basically, the ferrule is not closed off on the top anymore. While the original ferrule looked much nicer and was no doubt stronger, it was overkill compared to the strength of the shaft and is by no means "weak" now. I talked to my welder and he said he can weld any thickness to any thickness…therefore I made the wall thickness of the ferrule 0.05"…we'll see what happpens. :)

Spike is now pretty basic and the shaft will be bonded inside the spike. This will allow the bottom to take a little bit more of a beating if it is bumped against rocks and debris.

Also in the plan is small discs (maybe plastic) that will fit inside the bore of the spike and ferrule to stop snow from building up inside. I'm sick of having a wet spot in my car on the way home. :)

Weight will be about the same, maybe slightly less. In 50cm length, this should be about 116 grams or 4.1 oz.

I won't be getting them welded for a while just because the only guy I trust to do it is about an hour drive from me so I will have to wait for a reason to head out that way…try to kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

[Devin Montgomery]

Thanks for the update, Steven! I think these were some very smart manufacturing changes. So you think you're going to be able to meet the tolerances you need with the stock tube, or are you doing additional machining?

Since all other discussions are being disregarded, any chance this one will be type B compliant? :)

[Steven Evans]

Hi Devin,
The inner diameter of the tube is still machined on both the spike and the ferrule, but this is much easier when starting with a tube vs starting with solid bar. I also leave a step on the inside to butt the shaft up against.

My comment regarding the revisions/version 2 was just so that we all call this one V2. I have been going through so many revisions on the drawings that I need to keep track of everything…so even though this design is Rev X…it is only Version 2 as it will be the second version that I will manufacture in quantity.

As for B-rating…that would be nice wouldn't it? not sure it's possible…really comes down to the shaft and I don't think I am willing to add that type of weight to it. IIRC, my camp corsa was about 8 oz…tough to say how much weight I would need to add to mine to get the B rating.

[Huzefa @ Blue Bolt Gear]

cool! I am stoked about V2.

I am wondering how much weight shovel end will add.

[Derek Goffin]

Yes bunging the ends is a good idea, and the shaft inside the spike leaving a step will help protect the end of any protective tape. I think I am going to tape mine as the bottom of the CF shaft near the spike is vulnerable to damage that might cause failure, as in the event I reported.

[Steven Evans]

I think I am going to tape mine as the bottom of the CF shaft near the spike is vulnerable to damage

You nailed it. That is the major reason for bonding the shaft inside the spike. When the shafts are stock length there is less of an issue but when I cut them myself, even with a wet saw and taping the shaft to minimize fraying, there was still small fibers that were out of place. I added a layer of the epoxy around the perimeter to keep these in place, but seeing as the spike receives the majority of the abuse, it's smarter to bond inside.

[Kevin Egelhoff]

Steven,
Nice work !!! Now we just need a way to make a really cool carbon snow shovel blade that attaches to the head. Dual use now !!! Ti or Alum might be the way to go for cost reasons though! Might be something that you have already thought about? If we only had more time to work on all these fun ideas !!!

Also … time to start thinking about some new shaft designs to improve the shaft strength at the head?

Kevin

[Derek Goffin]

I see a good market for an axe like the one I have, made more economically like version 2. That does not mean that a B rated axe is not a good idea also. There is clearly a demand for that too. That I think is mostly down to strengthening the shaft, not just at the head but in the middle for a belay anchor and near the bottom to stop the sort of breakage I reported in self belay. In other words a bigger diameter and probably thicker walled shaft perhaps still with an insert at any particular weakness. Even adding 50 or 100% to the Carbon fibre weight would not make a heavy axe

[Jeremy Hankinson]

Steve,

I've spent the last few weeks making a Ti Shaft, 316L Stainless Head/Spike Ice axe for my Tahr hunt (South Island, New Zealand, Didn't get the crampons finished so that's next years project!), and i've just about finished (at work so will post photo's later). I'm giving some thought about making a Ti/Ca version (ala, copy your design) I'm just wondering if you could give me some advice on what the tolerances were into your ferules, and what diameter & thickness your Ca tubing was? I've been offered two lengths of Carbon tubing OD=24.56mm ID=21.75mm both 1.5m long for about NZ$45 (~20$US), so i'm thinking i'll snap them up and have a crack at the axe. My e-mail is [email protected]
I hope posting your email addy in here isn't against the rules? (moderator's please delete that last bit if it is).
You also mentioned scrapping some of the earlier crooked welded heads…..Don't surpose you've got a spare one?? Many Thanks, & Keep up the good work. Jez

(Forgot to say, it weighs in at 750grams, so not exactly feather weight)

[david wilcock]

A great project, well done.
Not sure if I have missed a new thread on this…
Are you making / selling the v2s?
Much feedback from those who have used it?

[Steven Evans]

Hey David,
I must have missed the last few posts. I haven't got around to finishing V2 yet. I went on too many hikes at the beginning of spring and now I'm swamped with other stuff…but it will happen. I have V1 axes available still if your interested – the same ones everyone here purchased. V2 will be slightly cheaper but I will still need to test them before I make a batch of them.

Jeremy, that's a slick looking axe. I'll send you an e-mail.

[Mark Berry]

Great project, but having subscribed mainly (to be fair not exclusively) to see this premium content, I'm a bit ticked off. This is far from being a MYOG project (what I was hoping to see) – it's a report on the design development of a commercial product! Very very few will have the resources to make this for themselves.

So, interesting read, but in the wrong place as it's misleading to call it a MYOG project.

IMHO, of course.

Mark

[Steven Evans]

Hey Mark,
The process is definitely not easy (BPL rated it a 10 in difficulty) but the basics are covered in the article. If you have no access to a machine/fabrication shop then you would need to outsource alot of the operations. Everything but the design aspect of the project can most likely be sourced locally. If you have a background in machining or access to a machine shop, it will save you time and money.

If you are serious about taking on the project, I will help as much as possible. I have helped many people make or work on similar projects.

Also, when the article was published, it was not a commercial product. It only ended up that way because people kept asking for them.

[Mark Berry]

Hi Steven.

Outsourcing ISN'T MYO! I could get just about anything made if I took that approach, but it wouldn't be self made, and certainly wouldn't be a candidate to be sold as a MYOG project.

The issue isn't so much that it's there or how it came about (I did say it's a great article), it's that, in effect, BPL are using it to entice people to subscribe. They put it in a MYOG section, give NO difficulty info in the summary that you can see before you subscribe, and offer a description that gives no hint at all that it's as specialized as it is.

So, someone's looking for some hints on how to make their own ice axe, see this summary, pay their dollars, and find that it's no where near being a MYOG project after all.

Not a problem in my case because there were other articles that were worth paying to see, but if something's sold as a MYOG project, it should be a MYOG project, within the reach of a significant proportion of readers, which this simply isn't. It should at the very least have a proper description of the project people are being asked to pay to see.

Thanks for your offer to help, but to be honest even with that, and even though I'm an engineer, it's way beyond what I'd want to take on, or have the facilities or time to do.

Mark

[Spruce Goose]

I was also upset about this. When I saw an article entitled "MYOG Titanium/Carbon Fiber Ice Axe", I expected something like this:

1) find some carbon fiber and use a hand saw and sandpaper to shape it into a shaft
2) find some titanium and pound it with a hammer until you have a head, and a spike
3) Gorilla Glue the titanium onto the shaft

Needless to say, I was very disappointed with this article. Shame on you all.

[Steven Evans]

Both of you make good points. I'd contact BPL direct and let them know how you were mislead.

[Denis Hazlewood]

Cut, sand, bend and glue if you so choose. I got Steve's TiCa v1 #18. It is a serious piece of functional art, lovingly made and is a treasured tool.

[Kevin Beeden]

You just need to improve your skills; think of it as an aspirational project…

And no, I'm not a BPL member, but I do make some of my own gear. Most significantly, I do know my limitations, and know that making a titanium ice axe is beyond me.

If you don't know that working titanium for something like this isn't something you can do with scissors and glue, you probably shouldn't be contemplating MYOG projects with it.

It's not as if the first few posts don't give a clue as to some of the techniques required:

"yet machining it out of solid titanium rod costs 22.7% of the total cost."

"now THAT is some serious MYOG"

"You are right that it would be easier to ream a tube and cut on an angle."

"The idea of trying to weld a titanium adze to an aluminium ferrule and spike … no thanks."

If you're thinking of making an axe, surely you've looked at commercially available axes and thought to yourself: "how is that made?" and "do I know how to do that?". If there are much easier ways of doing these things, don't you think the manufacturers would be using them?

Even the most basic axe requires the ability to cut, shape, bend and bond fairly sizeable chunks of metal, and be able to assess whether it will be strong enough for purpose.

[Spruce Goose]

Should I have added a ;-) to my prior post?

[Kevin Beeden]

Steve; I'm pretty sure that Spruce Goose's comment was firmly tongue-in-cheek.

[ah, SG got in there before I did]

[Steven Evans]

I wasn't sure so I played it safe…but it made me laugh like crazy. :)

I'm just trying to divert the attention over to BPL as I have no say in how the article was marketed…I'm just a dude that builds stuff. :)

[Mark Berry]

Quote:

I was also upset about this. When I saw an article entitled "MYOG Titanium/Carbon Fiber Ice Axe", I expected something like this:

1) find some carbon fiber and use a hand saw and sandpaper to shape it into a shaft
2) find some titanium and pound it with a hammer until you have a head, and a spike
3) Gorilla Glue the titanium onto the shaft

Needless to say, I was very disappointed with this article. Shame on you all.

Reply:

Why on earth would you expect that (or from someone else; "scissors and glue")? Why wouldn't you expect to find an article describing how to do this using the kinds of tools someone with general engineering skills might have at home, or at the very least would be able to hire at a sensible cost? I mean, given that this is sold (not given; sold) by BPL as a MYOG project, wouldn't that be reasonable?

From the description (and the comments – I guess you can find those if you know the site, but they're not linked from the MYOG page or the article summary if you're not a member), it's obviously not going to be something you can knock up in a couple of hours, but it could easily be something that could be done using bench drill, power saw, bench grinder etc etc etc. If it's not, it's not MYOG.

And people, please read my posts before commenting on them. I said this is a great article, and it is. It's fascinating, inventive, clever, comprehensive, well written, etc etc etc. I have no quarrel with Steve, and it SHOULD be on BPL. The issue is that it's premium content that people are asked to pay for, and so should be properly classified and/or described, that's all. Either that, or offered free.

Steve, maybe I should contact BPL direct, but do they not read comments on their own site?

Mark

[Ken Thompson]

He had something made that was not commercially available = MYOG
We don't make the silnylon fabric that we sew. Does that mean it's not MYOG?

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