MYOG Titanium/Carbon Fiber Ice Axe

[Roger Caffin]

Hot Yeah!
Just signed for mine at the door – #29.
145 g (5.11 oz).
That head is HARD, much harder than aluminium alloy!

Obligatory photo with ice axe and quilt:

With apologies to another Forum channel…
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=16112&skip_to_post=120851#120851

Thanks!
Roger

[Doug Johnson]

I LOVE mine! 68 cm #25 and 5.1 oz. I'm planning my next peak as I write this post. YEE HAW!

[Steven Evans]

I'm glad you guys like them! This project is almost finished with only a handful more to be built. I can't wait to hear some field reports…get out there!

[carlos fernandez rivas]

Mine has arrived two days ago … is amazing ….:-)

Waiting to the snowwwwwww… :-)

[Christopher Plesko]

Mine showed up today. 55cm, 132g/4.66oz. WOW is all I can say. I'm planning a trip on some snow ASAP.

[Joe Clement]

These look so cool, it makes me wish I had bought one. And I am a jillion miles from snow.

[Denis Hazlewood]

Joe,

What's this about snow? You tellin' me I need snow to operate this fine tool? Snow will be in the Sierra, a tank of gas away; assuming we get some this year. (Snow, that is.)

Stopped at REI this morning and picked up a Black Diamond leash and head protector.

Snow eh? Maybe in January, after I get back from Mexico.

[Paul Tree]

Works great!

Mt. Conness October 19, 2008!

Marketing pics!

[Paul Tree]

My worst Bear Gryllis evar

[Steven Evans]

Ha! Nice!

Those are awesome pics! Looks like a fun trip. Glad to hear it works…:)

[Derek Goffin]

Your ice axes just had their first taste of snow. Mostly soft snow over scree and rocks. The spikes have no burr or bluntness and even thougn the shaft got down into rocks several times there is no scratches on the CF shaft. If I get a scratch I intend to wrap handle bar tape round the bottom of the shaft. If I do that a spike with a bigger OD than the shaft would have been better.
No self arrests experienced. The pick drove into ice, if you gave it enough speed. I think I might round off the edges of the pick where my gloved hands hold it to stop it wearing out gloves. The 2 axes lashed onto my daysack so simply and no noticeable weight

[Steven Evans]

Derek,
Thanks for posting some feedback, and I'm glad they are working out. Let us know when some self arrests have been performed.

"a bigger OD than the shaft would have been better"

Interesting that you mentioned this. There are a number of reasons why I am going this route in the future. First reason is, as mentioned on previous posts, I can then make this part from a tube and save on material and manufacturing costs.
Second, is that cutting the carbon shaft can cause some of the fibers to come loose on the shaft. Most of you who purchased one will notice that I put a layer of epoxy on the outside overlapping the joint between the spike and the shaft. This was to eliminate any fraying of the fibers that would take place over time or from cutting. Cutting the shafts was a time consuming and slow process. I actually scrapped a few early on before I got my groove. Bonding the spike on the OD would fix this issue.
And third is that the spike, as Derek mentioned above, would protect the shaft somewhat when plunging.

Other improvements would be to sharpen the end of the pick as Thom did (nice job), but I think I'll leave that as a mod the user can perform.

[Derek Goffin]

Sounds like you might make another batch. That would be good.
I think you know what I mean but to reiterate if I protect with handle bar tape a bigger OD spike will protect the vulnerable bottom edge of the tape.
I also meant to say that I need to experiment with a bung to stop snow packing up inside the shaft. Has anyone done this already?

[Steven Evans]

Derek, sometimes it takes me a few times to sink in. :)

Does the above design change meet your criteria? Or did I miss something?

Above, the Spike would now have O.D. .875" while the shaft would be O.D. ~.770". This would allow you to tape the bottom of the shaft to the top of the spike and not worry about it peeling up from plunging and whatnot because the larger diameter of the spike would protect the exposed bottom edge of the tape. Does that make sense?

[Paul Tree]

Hi Steve, I'll take one of your quick-release titanium avy-shovel attachments for the shaft end. One advantage of the first spike design, smooth with the shaft.

Ok and one of the hiking-pole (Edit: probe) extensions too.

Money is no object. I don't have any.

Ta, P.

[Derek Goffin]

Does the above design change meet your criteria? Or did I miss something? Quote Steve

Yes well put

[Derek Goffin]

Hi Steve I spent some time hacking some ice with the pick and the adze. I feel You need a very wristy action to get the velocity to counteract the light weight. however holding the axe at the end of the shaft I did not feel any large amount of sting or snatch with either the pick or the adze so I think the relationship of impact edge to centre of gravity/radius of gyration must be close to correct. It felt sweet. Of course it does not do as much damage as a heavy axe.

If you are still interested I would like to start redesigning the head now.
Firstly as you must be aware the adze welding is not complete because the lightening slots get too close to the weld line. Next time I am sure you will back the lightening slots off a little.
For me I would give a little more solid titanium behind the adze edge to allow a little more longevity after re-sharpenings. So a bit less lighten slot at the edge end too.

Lookimg at the axe head, the centre of the head is a big empty hole. I would have thought this bit would need to be strong.
I also think you could redesign the head around titanium tube to save titanium costs and machining costs.
You need a certain length of ferrule to make a socket for the CF handle. We may find that a CF insert will increase the strength more effectively than increasing the length of socket.
Imagine the socket, the length as it is, being pushed up into the empty space in the middle of the head. So I mean replace the skeletal hole in the centre of the head with solid tube, to lengthen the socket for the shaft, then shorten the other end of the socket, to save weight.
I imagine a piece of reamed out and precision turned Ti tube. (With some sort of stiffener welded across the open end,if your strength testing software says it is needed). The pick shape, pretty much as now, welded to this. If you can get the right tube wall thickness, I think this ferrule has the potential to be lighter and cheaper.
If it is not quite as strong, you now have a "handle" on the strength of the CF shaft. I think this is the limiting factor on the axe not the Ti design.

[Steven Evans]

Derek,
I spent some time about a month ago redesigning the axe using a titanium tube instead of solid bar. It really didn't save any weight, but it will definitely ease the machining of the spike and ferrule. I haven't got around to ordering the material yet, but plan to in the coming weeks (I have some time off).
The "skeletal hole" was there for a number of reasons.
1) I had to bridge the top in order to reduce high stress areas. That being said, the carbon shaft is several times weaker then the ferrule, so on the next version that probably won't be required.
2) I needed to leave some material to weld to. The wall thickness of the ferrule where the shaft is inserted and bonded to is about…trying to think…maybe 0.050" thick. Since the pick is 0.125" I had to stop the shaft short and extend the material up so there was enough meat to weld to. The new design has the pick welded to the thin wall, so we'll have to see how it handles the welding/loading – again, I suspect the shaft is weaker.
3) I remember some complaints (see Helix review by Roger) of the helix that the ferrule was too high on the head and it was causing discomfort when holding it for hours/days at a time. My version left a nice handle to grip, although I think all axes will cause some sort of discomfort over time.

Regarding the adze, we can work on that, however, for my needs, I don't want to add any more weight to it. If I fill in the lightening holes, I'd like to shorten it. If the axe is any heavier, I think we are defeating it's purpose.

Basically, I agree with all your comments. I'll post a pick of the new design (which admittedly does not look as cool as the old one) on Wednesday when I get back in town.

[Derek Goffin]

I see what you mean Steve.
In that case I suggest the way forward is to reduce the thickness of the pick, and maybe the adze. Then because the pick will be too weak sideways add a long curved tail onto the adze head, welded along the top of the pick to make a T section. The T can be stopped where your stress analysis shows it is not needed, but certainly make it long enough for all of the users hand, to make the axe more comfortable to hold. The tail can have a widening, if needed, to make a partial end cap to the ferrule. The pick section would now be in 2 parts a pick and a separate adze support web.

Advantages:
it makes the titanium pick more equal in thickness to the ferrule wall to aid welding,
it might be lighter,
it should be more comfortable to hold,
even less materials cost. (I bet you would get the separate adze support web out of the biggest lightening hole in the pick. The "adze tail" could be a separate component from the adze head.)

Minor points:

I was looking at the "adze support web" on my axe and there seems to be a fraction too much metal at the ends of the web. The web sticks up above the weld, and I catch my glove on it occasionally. I will file mine off but if you increased the radius of that part by say 2mm, (to make the metal component smaller) you would loose weight. You may have to change the hole position or size. If the hole is important increase the radius Ymm and move the centre of radius away by Ymm,

I imagine the ferrule need not be a square ended cylinder, the top end could be a bit cut away, and the CF too if neccessary, say X degrees at the sides,starting from near the edges of the T section, to make it somewhat more comfortable to hold.

Making the adze head shorter, to save weight to allow a bit more "adze sharpening meat" seems a good thing.

[Roger Caffin]

I agree that leaving another few mm at the adze edge for future sharpening might be useful, although I would remind everyone that this is really a WALKING axe, and the idea that the adze might need regular sharpening seems to be at odds with the original intention.

Making the thin end of the slots near the root of the adze shorter so the weld can reach the end of the support – that's a good idea too.

Neither of these changes would add much weight.

Cheers

[Paul Tree]

I'm more concerned with hitting it on a rock just at the wrong spot, but when could that happen?
Scenarios:

* Chopping steps. Hm. Frankly, I avoid it.
* Excavating for an ice screw, never done it! Bollards, same.
* Digging a snow cave. That would take a while.
* Perhaps climbing, when using it for extra surface area (instead of the pick because of weaker snow or you suspect hidden rocks), an unseen rock could crack it. This could happen, but likely it would still function fine in this soft-snow or crust scenario. You would only be in trouble if you later had to rely on the adze to chop alot of hard ice.

So, not to worry about it breaking near the edge, or getting worn especially. Might be a bummer, but not a killer. It would be hard on your gloves if you got a burr on it. The spike and pick should see more action and wear.
After the first early-season trip, I was more worried about the spike, but even if it wears through to the hole, that will still work OK for me.

The spike could be sharpened all the way around if you are on finicky ice often enough. More snow collection though.

Wandering Links:
Ice climbing technique book talks a bit about geometry.
Attachments patent.

[Steven Evans]

Derek, I'll have to play around with the design to see what works. If I understand you correctly, I would have to bend the adze to fit the profile of the head. I'm hesitant to do this as now were talking another operation…plus going thinner then 1/8" doesn't make me feel too good.
I'll have to get the guys to weld a piece of 1/8" ti to a piece of .050" ti to see what happens. Maybe it will hold! Maybe they'll melt through, maybe it warps, maybe it breaks…I honestly don't know.
Regardless, I am still implementing the tube as that is the only feasible way to manufacture it for a price which people will pay.
As for the adze, I'll fatten it up a bit for resharpening, and adjust the geometry to allow a full weld.

This is what I was playing around with a while back…just to give you an idea of the ferrule…I dropped the material down to 0.08" thick at the time, just to see. It doesn't do well in any of the tests and axe weight sits around 3.2 oz for 50 cm length.

[Derek Goffin]

I know a lot less than you about Titanium. I do know from experience how easy it is to melt through a thin piece of steel when trying to weld it to thick. If your welder can do .125 to.05 then all to the good, but my suggestion was mainly to deal with that welding not working. I have BPL titanium skewers and they would easily spring round the top curve of the pick. I therefore thought it would be reasonably easy to clamp a straight piece of Ti plate of about .1" thickness or less, round the pick curve and weld it. You are now going to tell me there is titanium and titanium. I do not think the adze and its tail as I called it, need to be the same piece or even the same titanium, but yes the tail does need to be bent for my idea to work.
I also imagine the problem is caused because the Ti tube wall thicknesses available are all too thin, otherwise you just use a thcker walled tube.
I thought of another advantage of making the pick in 2 pieces (the pick and the adze support web). If The OD of the tube was a bit irregular it would not matter with 2 pieces.
When you say the tube ferrule "does not do well on the tests" I hope you mean "it is still stronger than the CF shaft, but is not as good as the first batch"
I assume the picture below your words is the tube based ferrule design. I would just suggest that getting the CF shaft right up to the top of the ferrule should be an advantage even if the sides of the end of the CF then have to be cut away. As you know I dont think the last third of the CF in the ferrule is very highly stressed so you can take liberties with it. Stopping the CF short of the end though is a lost opportunity in my opinion. (You could then push and glue the insert in a bit further than the end so it was not damaged).
I totally see that you can only make a Ti CF axe economically if you avoid machining from solid Ti. At least the owners of the first batch will always have the most elegant ultralight ice axe,not superceded by batch 2

[Paul Tree]

Not sure if you are looking for more input on getting the ferrule to be springy for the sake of the shaft. Buuutttttt,
Your drawing with the elongated ferrule slot made me think of this: a little bump-down of the connecting ti to form a bridge that can flex. No idea if ti is springy enough, especially so thin.

[Steven Evans]

I haven't forgot about you guys…good commetns. I'm just having some trouble sourcing the tubing size required. It seems the size I designed with "was" in stock and now isn't…apparently it was an overrun and they aren't getting any more in that size, unless of course I buy 300 ft. :(

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