Backpacking Light @ Philmont

[Tad Englund]

I can see by those numbers that they have done a great job-
I take 8-10 boys (12-13 year old)out once a month and I've seen how they handle cleanup, person/privacy/troop, you can always tell the "new" kid (always needs the LNT and outdoor code lecture at least twice each trip), no matter how much training I do after watching them, I would never eat with them or use there stuff-
I remember what I was like beck at that age though- I guess I'm lucky to still be alive or maybe I'm immune because I probably carry all the diseases that are out there. I never washed, drank straight from the streams, did minimal cleanup at best and had a great time.
As a younger kid I could never understand why my mom told me to wash my hands "after" I went the bathroom, If anything, I thought I should wash "before" I went! My hands were dirty and my "unit" was about the only clean thing on me. If I didn't wash my hands before I would get that thing dirty too- I thought adults had things totally backwards!
With that in mind I do try and explain the reason for washing after- it helps to have the e-coli in the news to hammer the point home.

[Douglas Prosser]

I'm working on an update of my article on Philmont and was interested in a couple items.
1. Does anyone have suggestions on replacements for the Philmont Bear bags?

2. Does anyone have suggestions on a canister stove to take as well as how many canisters between resupplies?

Thanks
Doug Prosser
[email protected]

[Phil Barton]

Hi Doug.
1. No experience with a replacement for Philmont bear bags.
2. We very successfully used 2 x MSR Windpro stoves for a crew of 9. We had plenty of stove capacity. We carried 6 canisters (8 oz size) and used most of them. We couldn't track exactly since the boys didn't completely use any canister. We bought 2 extra canisters at our first resupply at Ute Gulch Commissary. We didn't need the extras. We had a second crew of 9 that carried the same kit. It worked well for them too. Their fuel use was about the same.

Phil

[John Myers]

Doug,
We used a Windpro and a MSR Dragonfly.
Much preferred the Windpro, the Dragonfly was dirtier and more tempermental.

We took one 8 oz container for the Windpro and resupplied twice.

For the Dragonfly we brought one 12 oz container and resupplied it twice and had extra fuel at the end.

We will take 2 windpros next time. Wanted to take the Bushbuddy but fire ban prevented that.

I'm no help on bearbags, but sure would like some options on the bags and rope.

John

[ed dzierzak]

Doug,

On our last trek (this summer), I brought along a couple of bags (about Phil bear bag size) that I made fron $1 a yard light-weight ripstop (from WalMart). They worked well, were lighter than the Phil-bags, and packed much better.

Stoves – we used two Coleman Xtreme stoves. Apparently, they're no longer available :(. We only used 5 of the PowerMax canisters. Bought 7 at base camp and returned 2 (unused) after the trek. Didn't resupply gas – easier for us.

Ed

[Scott Bentz]

We used canister stoves. 3 in total but only needed 2. 2 Primus Micorn stoves and one MSR Pocket Rocket.
We also took 16 oz canisters. 3 in total for a crew of 12.
Next time I would use 8 oz. canisters. The bigger one's were a bit of a drag. We even had a stove melt all of the plastic off because we had a windscreen too close to the canister. The stove still worked but we couldn't take it off. We lost about 1/2 of the fuel trying to do so. So we just left it on. Even at that, we did not empty the third canister.

Our method was to cook all water and keep it boiling while each person took enough water to cook his food in a separate plastic cup. We did not cook in the 6 quart pot. We only used it for boiling water.

I would also like to know of a better bag to use.
We took our own Amsteel Rope and were happy with it since it was much lighter. A bit hard on the hands during heavy lifts, but much lighter.

Scott

[Wesley Witt]

I'm taking a crew in August 2009. Currently I'm planning on cooking exactly like we do on all our backpacking trips and this is with alcohol. It is an efficient cooking method and we can safely/legally ship the stoves and only have to buy alcohol when we get to NM. I do plan on buying some of the Philmont meals to practice with on some of our training hikes.

[Douglas Prosser]

What alcohol set-up are you planning for Philmont?

How many in cook group?

[paul buzzard]

We used Nova stoves that our troop already owned. Not very light, but can handle big pots easily, and are very fuel efficient. We had big group, 13, and took two 16 ounce bottles initially. Cooked all the meals needing heat, never refilled, had about 6 ounces left over, with coffee every morning. They are also great, field maintable stoves. And unfortunately we had to work on them a lot. Because the Philmont white gas supply is a joke. No problems before or after with good, new gas. Out there, had to fiddle with them. They worked, but no doubt root cause was bad gas. We came in on bus from Denver, so no opportunity to buy fresh gas. My point is, if you use white gas, DO NOT if possible buy at Philmont. Very disappointed in the supply given us.

[david edelstein]

Does anyone know if you can use these bags to cook in a pot? Would they melt if put into the pot and heated with a stove? They are supposed to tolerate up to 350 degree ovens. I know there are sizes made for crock pots and have used them as bags to hold food and then put boiling water in. I haven't tried to actually cook in them –I was thinking more for our regular camping rather than backpacking trips to save on cleanup work.

[Jim Colten]

Anyone out there who's used Turkey bag cooking care to write a wiki article? And maybe add a Cooking category?

[Joe Clement]

I'd like to see that in the wiki too. Maybe that would inspire me to figure out what the wiki is.

[Phil Barton]

David, you technically don't cook in the bags. You simply heat water in your pot. While the water is heating dump the dry food into a turkey roasting bag. When the water boils measure the needed amount and pour onto the food in the roasting bag. We would then set the bag on our insulation. A Scout would gently stir the food with a plastic spoon to help it all hydrate. If your Scout is careful he could also just squeeze the bag to be sure that all the food is hydrated rather than stirring.

Then the bag would be twisted at the top and set in an insulating pouch (or even a fleece jacket) for 10-15 minutes. At then end of that time the meal will be rehydrated and still very hot. Serving can be done with a spoon through the open top of the bag.

An advanced technique for thick, freeze dried meals is to cut off a corner of the turkey roasting bag and serve to bowls by squeezing food out the hole. The handling here requires a sophisticated technique much like a pastry bag. Even if the handler messes up and spills food the entertainment value can be quite high.

Since our crew of 9 had 2 pots and 2 stoves we had a lot of flexibility in how we would heat water for a meal. We are convinced that you don't need the huge pots that Philmont provides. We used two 2 quart pots. It's a great system. The only cleaning involved is for bowls and spoons.

If I can find a little extra time this weekend I'll try to post these instructions and some photos to the wiki.

[Mike Barney]

We also used Turkey bags for cooking. our ranger made it clear it was official required with a wink during our shakedown the first day. The scout in charge of it couldn't find it during the trek, but it was later found in the locker.

Cheers,
MikeB

[david edelstein]

Phil,
I've used them as "freezer bag cooking" just as you explained. What I was wondering is if you could for example heat up chili in a pot with them to avoid getting baked on crud on the bottom.
Dave

[Roger Caffin]

> if you could for example heat up chili in a pot with them to avoid getting baked on crud on the bottom.

The short answer is no: you will melt the bag.

One longer answer is yes if you put an inch of water in the pot first, to prevent the base of the pot getting too hot.

The real answer is that you should turn your stove down a lot, to a gentle simmer, and stir the pot as you heat the food, so you do not burn the food you are cooking.

Tongue in cheek: an even better answer would be to take one of the mothers with you – one who does home cooking and knows how to cook a stew. It could be educational for all.

Cheers

[Phil Barton]

Dave, Roger got it right…
>the short answer is no: you will melt the bag.

Since we're in the Philmont forum, my assumption was that we were talking about the freeze dried meals at Philmont. We didn't have any chili to heat. We sure never had food left over. At Philmont we only cooked one meal a day. We would usually have a hot supper. Sometimes we would have the hot meal when water was available at lunch time.

But like Roger also said, for that situation just turn down the heat. It's your pot and you can always cook in it if you like.

[paul buzzard]

We took turkey bags and used them the first couple evenings. Boys will be boys, and to get the food for 13 people rehydrated, you have to mix the stuff. Everytime our cook would puncture the bag, even if he was "careful", lol. So the pan got dirty anyway. And the bags were messy to get all the food out of. Anyway, by mutual vote, bags were forgotten, and the plastic scraper used to clean the pans out. We always had volunteers to scrape the pan clean and eat all it had. By the time the vultures were done, the pan hardly needed washing, lol.

[Scott Bentz]

We tried turkey bag cooking before our trek. We did not do that well. Too messy with people trying to scoop out their share of food. So, we decided to boil water and then each person would just put their dry meals in a plastic cup and add water directly to the cup. Mix and let stand. We never cooked in a pot. We only had to wash our own individual cup and spoon/fork.

I know some love turkey bag cooking. That's great. Just didn't work for us. A few things we did learn. Put a little less water in at first. It's easier to add later. Watery food tastes terrible. Also, make sure the water is at a good boil and keep it boiling while everyone is getting their share of water. Good hot water reconstitutes the meals much better. Cozy's work well.

Rangers do not like this at first but if you have experience and show them you are competent they should go along with it. We rarely had to sump anything.

[George Taylor]

We are contemplating taking canister stoves rather than white gas this year. It will be a big switch for us. Does anyone know what kind of canisters are available in the backcountry? I have heard that only Powermax canisters are available there, rather than generic isobutane canisters. Also, is there a particular canister stove that is well-suited to the large 8-quart pots that you use at Philmont?

George Taylor, ASM
Troop 28
Birmingham, Alabama
Philmont '07 and '09

[Douglas Prosser]

See the discussion above started 11/16 about stoves & fuel canisters.

The MSR Wind Pro sounded like one of the better choices. It will work with larger pots because the stove rests on the ground not the canister as some do.

Cheapest I see on google shopping $64: http://www.o2gearshop.com/catalog/product_info.php?language=en&currency=USD&products_id=1795&CAWELAID=163410520

[John Myers]

They do have MSR isobutane canisters in addition to the Powermax.

Last year we used a white gas stove and a MSR Windpro.
The Windpro was better by far.

[George Taylor]

We are almost to the point of switching from white gas to canister stoves but need to make the decision pretty soon (we are exp. 623-F). The weight factor is hard to ignore. Based on what has been discussed here, we can wait to purchase our isobutane canisters at the TOTT, which means that stoves themselves are the only thing that we will need to ship. Which brings up the next observation: Is there any reason why a stove using isobutane could not be included in checked luggage?

George Taylor, ASM
Troop 28
Birmingham, Alabama
Philmont '07 and '09

[Roger Caffin]

> Is there any reason why a stove using isobutane could not be included in checked luggage?

None whatsoever if you mean you just want to pack the stove with no canister. It is entirely legal.
Don't try taking canisters on the plane though.

Cheers

[George Geist]

We used two 150 foot lengths of Amsteel blue rope for
our Philmont trek this month. One was the main rope and the second was for the oops bag. We used them the "Philmont Way"
which means we doubled each rope making them effectively only
75 feet long. We had a couple camps where the tie-off trees
were so far away we would be hard pressed if we only had
100 foot lengths.

I wrote up some tips and ideas we used with the Amsteel Blue
ropes at http://www.csm.ornl.gov/~geist/Philmont/

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