Backpacking Light @ Philmont

[Mitchell Keil]

I regularly hike in the San Gabriels near LA and run into Scout troops all the time. Ranging in numbers from a half dozen kids and a leader to troops of platoon strength, these kids and their leaders are often in the best frame of mind and body to listen to a lightweight approach, especially when they have been slogging up an 15 degree slope for a while laboring under a 45lb pack for an overnighter. I have often intentionally set up camp near enough to the troop site to garner the occassional interest of a leader or a scout who has watched me set up my entire camp in a few minutes and unlimber myself from a 15 to 20 lb pack. Taking a subtle approach and coating it with honey can get you a lot a focused attention on gear and technique. And when you are almost 60 and have huge amounts of energy left after a 12 mile day, the adults really listen to what you have to say about getting lighter "at our age." I now carry a copy of the Prosser's gear list advice for parent of Philmont bound scouts and hand that out to the adults (found here on the BPL site). I haven't found one yet who was not thankful for the advice and help. Situational learning experiences have a real impact. Scouts can see light gear and see the value of it. It is most effective for the adults who definitely want to lighten their loads. I also carry a printout of all of the gear sites on the web that I have accumulated over the years.
These little things have really helped get the word out about lightweight gear and technique and I have recieved numerous emails after an encounter from leaders thanking me and asking for further advice and occassionally an invitation to make a more formal presentation to a troop.

[Phil Barton]

Mitchell, thank you for helping those Scout troops. Scouting works because adults get involved and help. Those adults are all volunteers trying to spend time with their own son and help the troop. Many of them have no background in the outdoor activities that the Scouting employs. I appreciate your enthusiasm and encouragement for those folks.

John, for footwear I will be wearing Brooks Cascadia 3 trail runners. My son will war a pair of NB trail runners. Our guys are wearing a range of shoes from Merrill, Vasque, and even 1 or 2 guys in lightweight boots. I think most everyone is wearing a short or crew height wool sock.

All the best,
Phil

[Mitchell Keil]

Phil:
I got a question from a friend who is going to Philmont with his son. What to wear for footwear. I see your answer and that of a few others. Would someone address the concern my friend expressed that Philmont is insisting on all leather boots that are durable, etc. What is Philmont's approach to footwear and what are scouts and adults doing to address this issue? How much of an issue is this and how much of a problem is it to go "lightweight" with trailrunners or other solutions?

[Jim Colten]

Phil,

About your Virga … Philmont tends to discourage solo tenting. Might be worth contacting them b4 you leave.

I shared a RainShadow with our scoutmaster on trek 20 in 2007. It attracted a fair amount of attention … and I've enticed a couple other leaders to join me in it on shorter trips since.

[Alan Marcum]

I was at Philmont late the summer of 2005, 803-E. I wore Scarpa ZG 65 GTX boots. I'm very willing to wear the additional weight of boots over trail runners to get the extra foot and ankle support. That said, these are among the lightest mid-height boots available then, and they FIT MY FOOT!

Given the ferocity of the New Mexico monsoon that year, I was glad to have a waterproof boot. We made camp in the rain twice, broke camp in the rain once, had something like 30 hours of solid rain starting the evening of our first day on trail. We had a ball nonetheless, and particularly appreciated the sweat lodges at A Springs!

Ahh, and the weather the rest of the trek was just lovely.

[Douglas Prosser]

You wrote: Now all we need to do is convince the Ranger that we don’t need to carry the yum-yum Frisbee

Guess what you do not have to use the Yum-Yum frisbee & spactula. Last year we changed over to 1 gal Paint Strainer bags. Go to home Depot for a 2 pack. Use one for 5 days trash-it, then use the other. The two bags weigh in at 0.4 ounces.

[Phil Barton]

Jim, I've heard that about using a solo shelter at Philmont. But we have an odd number in our crew. Our adults have been able to do the same in the past. We probably won't know 100% til we get there.

Mitchell, the written guidance is that a "quality pair of broken-in hiking boots are a necessity at Philmont." The only specs provided are that boots "should be 6 to 8 inches high with a sturdy sole." But many folks that I've talked to have worn a low shoe or trail runner. Philmont's planning DVD also shows hikers in shoes.

I've not been to Philmont before but have hiked in northern NM, Colorado, and AZ. I'm comfortable wearing trail runners and carrying a light pack. But obviously preference matters a lot. Alan had a great experience with Scarpa boots. How can you argue with that?

[Douglas Prosser]

I have been meaning to write an update of my Philmont article but I have never finished it so I'll include some of the main points here plus answer some questions I have heard. I was at Philmont last year and I am on 804-M2 trek this year. I was seeing a number of people go "somewhat" light but no one was carrying as small of packs as our trek. We were really moving down the trails passing a lot of crews. When I came of trail my pack weighed in at 16lbs. I have a lot of crew gear but 2 or 3 of the boys were lighter than me. The comment above this talked about the Paint strainer bag to replace the Philmont frisbee. Worked great, very light weight 0.4 oz for 2 bags.

Shoes: There is no requirement for boots at Philmont. Trail runners worked great. I used Solomon XA Pro 3D's last year & plan on this year. worked great. Do not get gore tex. The plain 3D's dry quickly & really keep you cool on the hot days.

Tents: In the past we used the Black Diamond tents Betalight & Mega-light tents. Both really good & recently could find them for 20% off. I was fortunate to get in orders for two new tents that are similiar to the Black Diamonds but from http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/ The Spinntex MID (18oz)4 person & Superfly (11.5oz)2 person. I'll be using both on this years Trek. Ron Bell has also designed & marketed a number of items that will save a lot of weight. He has a great section on fabrics (Fabric Mojo).

Sleeping Pads: Big Agnes has come out with some lighter weight thick pads call Clear Air Pads. http://www.bigagnes.com/str_pads.php?bid=8 Take a look at this. Yes they are thin but if you are careful you save a lot of weight & get a good nights sleep.

Bear Ropes: Now to something I recommended not touching. I met Paul Mergens on last years trek. He recognized me from my article & he shared what he is doing & had confirmed by Doug Palmer the Head Ranger. He used ropes similiar to the AirCore Pro URSA Dyneema Bear Bag Hanging Ropes on this web site. He ordered Amsteel Blue Ropes 2.5mm w/ tensile strength of 1400 pounds and weigh less than 0.5lbs/150ft. He stated costs were approx. 14 cents/ft. He stated that the ropes performed well with no wear. Because of small diameter he stated the scouts did need to use a small stick with the rope wrapped around to haul the heavy bear bags up. Our scout master has already purchased a 600 ft spool of this rope from a local Marine Hardware store. This is what we will use at Philmont this year.

Bear Bags: We were going to bring some new lighter weight bear bags since the ones we had at the end of the season were pretty trashed.

Stoves: One option I've been kicking around is to take one Simmerlite & large fuel bottle but not to take second stove and instead to take a Bushbuddy Ultra wood stove as a backup.

All of our ideas but you I again saw scouts with 50, 60, 70+ pound packs. I talked with a number of adults being evacuated because their joints could not handle the trek. And I sat around Staff coffee's talking with other leaders that did nothing but complain about their trek & all the weight they're carrying. I think the biggest eye opener for them was when our crew blew by them going down the trail singing while they could not even catch their breath enough to say hi!

PS: With these additions we will not use ANY Philmont gear. Just food & their Micropure tabs.

One other thing I would like to encourage. Please look into the trekking 1 classes on this web site. If we can get a core group of scouting leaders with this knowledge we really can effect change. I myself signed up for the Desert Southwest couse in Utah during October. http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/wilderness_trekking_i.html

Hope this helps. Enoy Philmont it is a great experience.

Doug Prosser
[email protected]

[Douglas Prosser]

Almost all of the rangrs are using solo tents. As long as they are located around the other tents there should not be a problem.

[Phil Barton]

Doug, thanks for the insights.

The Amsteel Blue Ropes 2.5mm is an interesting idea.

What do you use for bear bag stuff sacks?

Thanks also for the Trekking 1 course idea. You're right that Scouting is a slow community to change. Leading by example, knowledge, and experience is the way to go.

[Douglas Prosser]

The Bear stuff sacks: Philmont used a weaved nylon sandbag. We may either purchase our own or look for options. Mountain Laurel Designs had a really nice one but a bit pricey for everyone in the crew.

[John Myers]

"Bear Ropes: Now to something I recommended not touching. I met Paul Mergens on last years trek. He recognized me from my article & he shared what he is doing & had confirmed by Doug Palmer the Head Ranger. He used ropes similiar to the AirCore Pro URSA Dyneema Bear Bag Hanging Ropes on this web site. He ordered Amsteel Blue Ropes 2.5mm w/ tensile strength of 1400 pounds and weigh less than 0.5lbs/150ft."

Does that mean Philmont is now using those ropes for the bear bags, or that we should bring our own? If we bring our own, how many and what length? (2 @ 150' each?)

[Douglas Prosser]

I sent Paul Mergens an email to see if he can post all the specifics on the ropes. Philmont is not going to these lighter ropes but it appears they will allow there use. From what I can recall from Paul they used two (2) 75ft lengths of rope for their crew without any problems.

My Scoutmaster (Lance Kistler) & I talked and were thinking 75 ft seemed a bit short for some of the places where we had to hang bags so we were thinking of using two(2) 100ft lengths for each of our crews this year.

Hopefully Paul can get on-line to provide specifics.

[Joe Johnstone]

No problem with advisor in solo tents. Kids have to be paired unless odd number. I used an MSR Zoid 2 last year, and it had plenty of room solo, but comes in at over 4 lbs.

I'm getting a Tarptent Contrail today! 23 Ozs.

Also, I would be a bit concerned about 2 – 2 qt pots for a vrew of 12. We had 2 – 4 Qt pots, and came a little close on some meals.

Getting out of base camp with 35 lbs including food, water and crew gear is pretty hard to do. Not impossible, but you really have to work at it. That's my goal next year. I have the Contrail, Golite odyssey, and a Big Agnes Zirkel bag which saves over 7 lbs from last years hike.

Last year was my first trip, and I now know what can be left behind, like a camp stool, too many batteries, less socks and shirts.

Joe
2007 710-O2 Trek 14.

[Paul Mergens]

Doug

Thanks for posting the information on the Amsteel bear rope. The specifications for this rope are correctly listed in your previous post. Our crew had great success using the two (75') lengths for hanging Philmont issued bear bags. Our Ranger thought it was a great idea and we shaved 2 lbs off this essential backcountry crew gear item.
Everyone have a great time at Philmont this summer. I will be going again in 2009!

"The more you know, the less you carry"

Paul

[Phil Barton]

Does anyone know a good online source for Amsteel rope? Thanks

[Douglas Prosser]

The Sampson Company has a dealer locator.
http://www.samsonrope.com/index.cfm?page=23

This is the specs on the Amsteel-Blue rope.
http://www.samsonrope.com/index.cfm?rope=192

You can see the bear rope (AirCore Pro URSA Dyneema Bear Bag Hanging Rope) on this site is as strong (1,400lbs.) and same size (2.5mm)but runs a min of $0.30/ft depending on membership status. When I asked the customer service they would have to await an order to come in & they were willing to give me 100 ft lengths.:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/aircore_pro_ursa_bear_bag_hanging_rope.html

When I searched Google shopping the lowest price I found was $0.58/ft for Amsteel-Blue 7/16 (2.5mm)
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/341594?ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=341594

Maybe someone can find it cheaper or maybe perhaps Ryan Jordan can arrange a special on BPL for "Philmont Bear Ropes" at a nice price for BSA Troops. How about it Ryan?

[Richard Nisley]

Douglas,

The diameter of the 7/16 Amsteel-Blue is 11.1125 mm.

[Jim Colten]

Douglas,

Maybe you meant 7/64 inch? (is 2.5 mm).

$0.22/ft here http://www.go2marine.com/product.do?no=38345F&WT.mc_id=gb1

[Douglas Prosser]

How embarrassing. :-))

Yes. 7/64 in (2.5mm)

This is what I get for doing this in between work emails. You can guess which I like better.

[Mike Barney]

Doug,
thanks for the pointer on the painter strainer bags. I think we'll give that a try I have to believe that's actually a better solution than 1/4" holes.

Like you guys, we're not using any of their reusable gear (food and tablets excepted).

Mike

Trek 16 / 806-H4

[Mike Barney]

We set up a 3/8" steel cable at 17' to practice and try to improve on the setup. One problem is anytime you have a rope going over the multi-stranded cable, most every rope, cord and even coated cables encountered significant friction as it rubbed on the many strands. We've been working on preventing rope breaks, which can really complicate the problem (knots going over cable can be a literal show stopper)

We've been refining a highly modified carabiner "Barney Bag"(tm) approach which has several advantages:

No / very low rope wear
2:1 Mechanical advantage
Very low friction at rope contact points.
1 Scout is consistently able to lift 100 lbs of food / gear by himself
Oops bag has 2:1 mechanical advantage and can be rigged to not have to be tied off
Easy connect / disconnect
Weight is about 1/4 that of Philmont ropes.

On the down side, some practice is required. About 5 minutes will do, but you do have to practice.

We're working to get to our final rev #5 before Philmont. Will try to get some pictures. The general concensus is it's much easier to use.

On the flip side, does anyone see a market for something like this, or is the market too small for cable based bear bagging?

Regards,
MikeB

[Paul Mergens]

Mike

I like the idea of increasing the mechanical advantage using a carabiner/pully arrangement. Less tension on the rope and easier for the Scouts to manage. I would be interested in seeing that bear bag/oops bag setup. Thanks

Paul

[Phil Barton]

Doug, you've started me looking at options to replace the Philmont ropes and bear bags. That was to be the only Philmont provided gear we would use.

What are you using to replace the mesh/burlap bags provided by Philmont?

Thanks

[Mike Barney]

Paul, I'll get some pictures out shortly with a description. We're also using very lightweight bags which we'll also show pictures of.

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