caffeine pills instead of coffee?

[Dave P]

Under most circumstances, I would do the same.

But not free of the sin of snacking on caffeine-laced chocolate in bed though. Usually by the time I get up, the buzz sets in.

[Nick Gatel]

I learned a long time ago that one needs a good breakfast to start of the day. I also have learned there is nothing better than staying in your sleeping bag on a cold morning while eating breakfast and warming the soul with a cup of coffee.

I keep my stove next to me so I can cook breakfast without getting out of my bag.

[Daniel Pittman]

I haven't had any caffeine in ten years, and never was a coffee drinker. However, my life partner/accomplice is a barista at Starbucks and loves a Via iced coffee when we're away from hot water. Try it out, and if it suits you I'll have her bring home a few boxes for you.

[Mobile Calculator]

[…]

[Cameron M]

"or I guess I could just mix up a cold coffee to slam down while I pack up….but that's almost as sacrilegious as taking pills instead."

Have you tried caffeine-laden power-gels with two cups of water? Acts like rocket fuel on an empty stomach-

[Cameron M]

NVM

[Jennifer Mitol]

So here is the plan we are working on:

I am a carb addict. And I am fat.

Carbs are the easiest to digest and convert to energy, fat is a bit harder. Our bodies are inherently lazy and will use the most efficient fuel available – carbs. I eat carbs for breakfast, I don't have to burn all the fat I have. Makes sense….

This past month I've been on a very low-carb meal plan (carbs only from veggies and fruits, no more grains, pasta, minimal sugar, etc.) to try to teach my body to burn fat as its main fuel source instead of this constant stream of carbs I'm consuming all day long.

So my hiking plan (yes, I am testing it now – it may or may not work) is to avoid carbs during the day and stick to fat and protein as my primary fuel source (both what I'm carrying as well as what I eat) and then at dinner go ahead and use carbs as recovery. Then in the morning POSSIBLY avoid breakfast (to continue to force my body to use stored fat as fuel – but yes, at some point I need to eat, maybe 9-10am? and then that would be primarily fat-based (nuts, cheese, sausage, etc).

So it's not just plain-old don't-eat-breakfast, it's part of a much larger plan I'm working on overall. I've been doing the low-carb thing for about 3 weeks now…and I have about a month to go before my trip. If it doesn't work out, well then sure, I'll go back to my regular carb fest. But it's certainly worth a try, right?

Back in my marathoning days I remember that I did much better with fat as fuel rather than carbs – I actually found that if I had a good steak before a race or a long run I did FAR better than any "carb-loading" we would do. I also did better if I did NOT eat first thing in the morning before those long runs….. So it kind of makes sense as far as my body goes.

We're calling it an experiment…..

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

It's hard to run on fat or protein – if you eat too much – it takes time for it to get moving. One reason I cannot eat a lot if either if I am hiking uphill. Downhill, totally different ;-) I found over the years that if I stopped and ate too much protein (especially animal based), my body needed to get it processing before I resumed hiking, or I'd be feeling ready to hurl.

Now then…..lets talk being female: If a steak helped you, it might have had a lot to do with iron. Are you anemic by any chance? More women are than they realize. I've been severely anemic for years. I get by OK for 3 weeks, we eat vegetarian but come week 4…I am a rare steak person – it makes that much difference.

But I do agree….carb loading is not a winner – a small amount, yes, a big bowl of carbs right at 7 am? You will crash. For me, I love eggs and a small amount of potatoes for example….protein with a small amount of carbs :-) Keeps me full for hours.

[BlackHatGuy]

Interesting discussion relevant to thread here: http://www.cyclingforums.com/topic/295479-early-morning-workouts/

[Jennifer Mitol]

Well Sarah the key here is the "training" leading up to using fat as a fuel source. I'm actually restricting carbs A LOT right now, more than I will in the future. I have already been through my "carb flu" as they call it, and interestingly enough I seem to have a lot more energy than I did before. The idea is that you deprive your body of the easy fuel source, so it has to go to the next thing, fat, if it wants any energy/fuel.

My runs are consistently good and strong – whereas usually in this kind of hot weather I'd usually suffer more than not (even when I was training a lot and running really well). So the key here is to train my body to use the fat stores as fuel – THEN it works well.

But as crappy as I felt that first week I can't imagine just doing it cold turkey – you're right, there's no way at all to go without carbs and have any energy at all.

And no, I'm not at all anemic ;)

[Dave P]

The good thing is that chocolate is considered as low carb… Well as long they are 70% dark or more.

[Pedestrian]

For those interested in learning more about burning fat for extended endurance activities check out the following:

http://fellrnr.com/wiki/Ketogenic_Experiment

It is a wiki of an 7-month long experiment with ketogenic eating while running up to 80+ miles per week and competing in multiple marathon and ultra-marathon distance races.

He also provides a lot of great references and a wealth of data.

Of course, YMMV, HYOH etc etc

[Dave P]

That Wiki is awesome. I have it as a linked source on my blog. It's an experiment everyone should take a look at.

Most of the prescribed courses of the LCHF by health professionals (eg. recommended in Sweden's national healthcare) are not low-carb enough to enter ketosis. The obsession with ketogenic diets, unless prescribed for conditions such as diabetes, epilepsy et al, seem to be more of a self-diagnosis thing in the community. It's very bizarre.

My girlfriend is one of those people who willingly go into ketosis without an official prescription from a doctor. But like you said: YMMV. Ironically, she always ends abandoning her lifestyle if we go camping or hiking even though she tries very hard to stick with it.

Even the hardcore evangelicals in the LCHF community seem to include potatoes or oatmeals into their diets if they are doing any athletic functions. If one was to look at their calculations, they call themselves "low carb" but falls more into the category of "moderate" of about 50 to 100 grams per day. Or sometimes more.

I think Joans Bergqvist had the right idea when he created a separate category for athletic low-carb adherents: "exercise-liberal LCHF".

[Dave P]

Found it:

What Is The Low Carbohydrate Diet?

He goes into more depth in his books (not in English, Swedish-only), but he says for someone who trains a lot, it is okay to have 100 to 200 grams of carbohydrate in the diet as long the proportion remains the same. So one will still be increasing the amount of protein, fats to the ratio of increased carb.

Edit: Now that I think about it, better get used to using Google Translate. Most of the science-backed LCHF stuff for athletes are in Swedish or Norwegian.

[Monte Masterson]

It doesn't take long to boil 8 oz of water. Then just add a packet of Starbucks Blonde Roast instant.
If I were trying to break some kind of endurance record I might see foregoing the coffee, but otherwise, why?

As always, balanced diets are best. The Atkins diet has been proven to have many side effects. 4 oz of oatmeal with coffee in the morning is a great way to start the day. Sure, maybe go low carb, but not carb free. If you're hiking 15+ miles per day in steep mountain terrain without carbs, you could get very miserable and sick like the girls on Naked and Afraid.

[Jennifer Mitol]

To CLARIFY…

I am NOT going carb free, nor am I doing the ketosis version, either. At the moment I'm simply trying to aim for 50-150g carbs PRIOR to my hike in order to help with the adaptation; once I start hiking I will add a nice big pile of noodles or rice or mashed potatoes or whatnot in the evening, or possibly a drink during the day as well.

I am NOT trying to stick to paleo, or atkins, or any of that. I'm simply trying to cut DOWN on how many carbs i eat each day to help with weight loss as well as to try to convince my body to burn more fat. And in analyzing some of the writings about the different types of low-carb eating plans out there, it seems that when I was in my best shape I kind of did this on my own anyway, just without realizing it.

I am also training with this – so if it's a disaster I'm not stuck without carbs – i'll just eat them!

[Stuart R]

I often exercise before breakfast: Sunday morning run 1 – 1.5hr, or cycle to work 1hr. Neither of these are a lot of exercise, 500-600 kcal if my HRM is to believed, and easily met from my glycogen stores. I don't think they make much difference to my fat burning.

Thing is, you burn fat (almost) all the time. At rest, something like 50% of your energy comes from fat. The harder you exercise, the SMALLER the % from fat. This is because it takes more oxygen to burn fatty acids the glycogen/glucose. When you exercise hard, you are limited by your oxygen consumption so it all goes to burn the most readily oxidised fuel – carbs.

So to boost your fat burn you should do lots of moderate exercise – walking/hiking, cycling, jogging (not hard running). If you try to exercise hard starting with depleted glycogen reserves you will soon know about it – in a bad way! Your brain can burn glucose only. When it detects a shortage of glucose it will do whatever it takes to preserve what glucose remains.

The carbs to cut out are all the refined ones. I eat lots of wholewheat bread and pasta, brown rice as well as fruit and veg (and my BMI is a healthy 21 at 6'1").

[M B]

the reason you want to do cardio excercise first thing in the morning on an empty stomach, is because you havent eaten for 12 hrs or so and your bodys glycogen stores are low. Excercising this way helps to maximize the fat burned , your body simply has no other immediate fuel alternatives.

It also raises your metabolism early in the day, and your body continues to burn accelerated calories for a while afterward. Its also important NOT to eat for at least an hour or more after excercising to get the most benefit from this.

In a hiking situation, i dont see it making a mole hill of difference. You run a calorie deficit all day every day, and the overall calorie balance is going to rule.

[John S.]

Overnight your muscle glycogen stores would be replenished to their maximal levels if you are eating properly. The reason you may want to do cardio in the morning before eating (postabsorptive state) is so you may burn more fat (if exercising at appropriate intensity) and no dietary sugars are on board to raise insulin levels (and thereby lessen fat oxidation). Your body always has immediate fuel alternatives that will depend on intensity of exercise.

[Dave P]

"n a hiking situation, i dont see it making a mole hill of difference. You run a calorie deficit all day every day, and the overall calorie balance is going to rule."

Calorie-density, really.

But I don't see hikers wanting to chug olive oil like cyclists frequently do. Bleeeeeeeeeeeh. I don't know how elites tolerate stuff like that.

[Dave P]

"I am NOT going carb free, nor am I doing the ketosis version, either. At the moment I'm simply trying to aim for 50-150g carbs PRIOR to my hike in order to help with the adaptation; once I start hiking I will add a nice big pile of noodles or rice or mashed potatoes or whatnot in the evening, or possibly a drink during the day as well."

Yeah, I kind of figured your nutritionist is probably paying attention to the "LCHF Revolution" in Sweden. It's not even the same thing people are thinking of here in North America.

I find it pointless to discuss LCHF in my area because evryone immediately thinks of Gluten Free, Atkins or Paleo diet, when I really meant some of the stuff coming out of Scandinavia. It's way too expensive to go paleo in those countries anyway. Tried doing the North American meat-heavy diet… ended up sustaining on sausages, milk and cream to stretch the budget.

I sort of grew up on LCHF though. My family were Mennonites and Ukranians, so our meals were heavy on cream, butter, cheese and so on. We ate potatoes and bread (rustic oven-baked) frequently too, but nowhere near as much as some families do in the States. Meat was too expensive, so there was no way we could pull off American-style paleo diet. Only had enough meat to get by. But we always stayed thin and strong.

Imagine my facial expression when I found out the Nordic LCHF is similar to the Mennonite/Ukranian/Russian food dishes I grew up on…. In term of carb/fat/protein ratio anyway.

Of course, I got fat when I abandoned the Ukranian lifestyle and started eating American foods: low fat, high protein, high carb. And lost a lot of muscle tone too.

Now before anyone corrects me that Swedish/Norwegian/Finnish dishes are heavy in low-fat high carbohydrates… that's true, but it wasn't the norm historically. Their governments started recommending the low-fat diet based on a study of Karelians who had higher than average heart attacks circa late 1970s early 1980s. Except the problem was that diabetes became the new national crisis. So, now people are undergoing the phase of "what our grandfathers ate" and redsscovering old recipes at the moment.

[Jerry Adams]

You could bake some sort of cookie like thing and put coffee powder in it. Or granola bar.

[Cayenne Redmonk]

Melt a bag of tootsie rolls in slow cooker, add instant coffee powder, pour onto parchment paper, solidify and reroll.

[Jennifer Mitol]

OMG Willie that is awesome! between that and the cookie recipe it would be a perfect start to my day! I also like some days just doing the cold coffee……I think that should hold me just fine for my 5a starts!

One thing I find rather interesting about my two JMT trips is that the guys I walked with ate like crazy and lost SOOO much weight. The first year I did it my friend actually got down to 2.5% body fat! He looked like he left a concentration camp on the train back to SFO….(any other chubby girls out there who have done a long hike have a similar experience?)

The second year I did it I ended up meeting a couple who were my age, and the woman was about my build (not quite as fat as I was then tho). All the guys I hiked with – again, RAGING appetites and they lost SO much weight! The other woman and I ate as much as we could, but still way less than the guys – and I barely lost 8 pounds. My new female friend as well – she said her clothes still fit the same when she got home.

So part of what I'm trying to do here is analyze this conundrum: I bonked nearly the whole way, I had no appetite, I had tons of stored fat, I forced down the same foods I always eat backpacking that had previously been just fine, I never got to "hiker hunger," and yet I really didn't lose any appreciable weight (I needed to lose about 60 pounds – so 8 was a big MEH).

I came away from that trip realizing that A) holy sh!t I'm fat! and B) I need to do something very different about my food/calorie/nutrient intake on my next long trip.

[George F]

I noticed that on my thru hike, the guys tended to lose weight more than the girls. It is almost like with guys when food is short the body burns it as fast or faster, sort of a charge out there and get the next meal plan, while for women the body goes into a hunker down mode when things are tight, like hiking at a deficit, the body stores as much as possible getting ready to wait out the lean times. Purely nonscientific, but I did come away with that observation. Good luck on getting back to where you want to be.

[Author]

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