Lightweight Backpacking News: Digest No. 15

[Ken Thompson]

So what do you think about the Billet Camp Stove, people? Any thoughts on the MYOG no tools bow and arrow video ? The speaker thing has been beaten to death.

[Terran Terran]

I'm not sure of the whole point of MYOG bow. I think every kid out there has made one. Ultralight hunting or a spot on Naked and afraid hunting baby chipmonks. There are folks that make MYOG bows that can kill an animal without adding to the cruelity. In a true survivalist situation, yes. We're just out here playing. Nothing serious. Maybe that's all he's doing. I can't take him serious.

[Anonymous]

"We have no rights, we hsve no responsibility other than those we place on ourselves. We can't control other people."

You have just stated The Law of the Jungle. People who follow that law very quickly learn the balance between their rights and those of others the hard way. Out of that chaos systems of law emerged thousands of years ago, and have evolved into the systems we have today. There are always gray areas that law does not anticipate, and in civilized societies behavior therein is governed by what I would call responsibility/consideration for others, best taught early on by parents and reinforced in the school system. I personally believe loud noise/music in the backcountry, hard to tell the difference sometimes, IMO, falls into this area. Hopefully such situations do not regress to be settled by the law of the jungle, but if the generator of such noise has not been properly taught by parents and schools, and is thus not sufficiently attuned to the sensibilities of others, that it is where it will inevitably end up.

[Terran Terran]

""You have just stated The Law of the Jungle. People who follow that law very quickly learn the balance between their rights and those of others the hard way.""

Sounds like a free for all. The one with strongest wood to make the strongest bow wins. It has nothing really to do with right and wrong. They have as much right to the radio as we have a right to stop them which is none for either of us. Again the biggest stick wins. Kid may have a gun in which case by this logic, he has more rights.
In our society, we don't decide individually what is right. It is not up to me individually to enforce my comfort by denying it to others. That is a matter of law. In a common area where it is legal to do so, I am SOL. I pass through quickly. No troubles.

[Anonymous]

"Sounds like a free for all."

Exactly my point, which is where your line of reasoning ends up. If people are to live together peacefully, there have to be common rules of behavior. Some, known as laws, are formally prescribed and enforced by duly constituted authority. Others are informal cultural norms inculcated at home and later school, workplace, playground, whatever. A common thread running thru all generally accepted norms of behavior, formal or otherwise, is that an individual does not have the right to interfere with the rights of others(plural) in pursuit of his own objectives. A very typical example of this is loud, or irritating, noise. There are noise abatement laws written into every municipal code in the country, with good reason. In wilderness areas, there may not be formal laws, but it is understood by the vast majority that playing music loudly enough to interfere with the prime reason for going into the wilderness in the first place, I.e. quiet, peaceful solitude untrammeled by the hand of man, is a violation of community norms. Those who do so, will inevitably do so at their peril as the situation sooner or later descends into confrontation and regression to the law of the jungle. That is the way it was long ago, and we have slowly, painfully evolved our way out of that barbaric state of affairs. At least when we are not at war. Why anybody would want to provoke such a situation, especially when there is a readily available way to enjoy their music without disturbing others, called a "bud", is beyond me. Freedom is a wonderful thing, but it comes with a responsibility to exercise it with due regard for the freedom of others. Those who do not will soon find their freedom curtailed, either by the authorities, or more informally by those whom he has unnecessarily disturbed.

"In our society, we don't decide individually what is right.

You are right about one thing, which is that we don't get to decide individually what is right, which is exactly what you seem to be advocating. That is why we have laws and cultural norms to govern our behavior in the public space. Humanity has been there before, and doesn't need to go back. Music is the wilderness is a relatively insignificant example of what , IMO, is an increasingly common attitude in our society, and it will not end well if it continues unchecked

[Terran Terran]

Freedom is a wonderful thing, but it comes with a responsibility to exercise it with due regard for the freedom of others.""

Which goes for us as well as those who annoy us. Neither party has the authority to impose their will on the other.
"Cultural norm" means very little. We have a legal right to do what is not against the law. It may be rude.
There is nothing new about disrespectful campers. I personally do not play or advocate or even remotely agree with violating the silence. I don't like brightly colored backpacks. I want to pretend that I'm all alone, but I'm not. I have to make an atempt to include others along with what I may not consider normal. I'm not the wilderness police. None of us are. All we can do is follow our own rules. Follow the advice of Woodsie Owl. I think he's extinct. Drowned on the lower Kern.

[Cayenne Redmonk]

Arguably, We have a legal right to not do what is <strike>not</strike> against the law.

[Anonymous]

""Cultural norm" means very little. We have a legal right to do what is not against the law. It may be rude."

To the extent that cultural norm means very little, we are no more than a collection of disconnected individuals, not members of a strong, flourishing society sharing common goals. We will act accordingly, and the ensuing chaos will guarantee that each rude action will soon be the subject of a law specifically controlling it, for the first obligation of any government is to maintain order and security. Taken to its logical end point, every action will be controlled by the government. Indeed, that is the way this country is evolving, precisely because so many people seem to feel as you do, that everything which is not specifically illegal is OK. You may be satisfied with that sad state of affairs, but I am not. Most of my life I lived in a country where common sense and consideration for others governed people's public behavior, and a lot of things that weren't against the law were nonetheless not done because of that common sense/consideration. It was a much pleasanter to be out among people back then, knowing that you shared a common basic sense of how to behave and treat each other. I could go on, but I think I have made my point as well as I can. Not much sense in continuing this one.

[Ken Thompson]

I reserve my right to voice my displeasure of your actions.

[Terran Terran]

"I reserve my right to voice my displeasure of your actions"
You have every right to voice your opinion.
I have 4 dogs. One barks, they all start barking. I start yelling. Now there's 5 dogs barking. Now instead, if I snap my fingers and point, give them directions, they stop. I don't advocate the barking. I've only chosen not to add to it.
We do have a right to be rude. When others are rude, we tend to follow suit. It is better to break that mode of thought. Change it. Barking back does little good and only adds to the noise. It's annoying for the neighbors. Set an example, walk on by.
I mentioned the law of the commons as well as the lower Kern. The top of the lower Kern has free camping. Loud music plays all night and the area is completely trashed out, white paper, diapers…The only thing that gets picked up are the aluminum cans. Law enforcement is minimal. Better to avoid it, then it is to go in and play Rambo. Change will only come through regulation, and control. While we once had ranger programs and education, those are a thing of the past. Our best options are not on the table. Regulation remains. You loose your freedom. People have a right to be jerks. We have to accept that to some degree for the sake of harmony and for the sake of our own personal freedoms.

[Ken Thompson]

You're fun.

[Dave P]

"I'm not sure of the whole point of MYOG bow. I think every kid out there has made one. Ultralight hunting or a spot on Naked and afraid hunting baby chipmonks. There are folks that make MYOG bows that can kill an animal without adding to the cruelity. In a true survivalist situation, yes. We're just out here playing. Nothing serious. Maybe that's all he's doing. I can't take him serious."

Remember, we have a whole generation of 30-something adults who never went to Boy Scouts. That's basically why bushcraft is so popular.

[Author]

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