Help: Single wall tent dilema

[Mathieu Fagnan]

I would like some users feedbacks on single wall tents.

I am goiing alone to Aconcagua this winter to train for a high altitude climb this spring. I have been to Aconcagua before but as a team of 2. At that time we had a Mountain HardWear VL wing tent (I think I am one of the very few to have owned this tent). It a single pole single wall tent similar to to the MontBell Monoframe diamond in geometry but with room for two. The tent perform flawlessly, but was somewhat heavy at 2880gr (real trail weight)and the material suffer major delamination,(MHW replace the tent).

Now I am looking at the very lightess possibility for a mountaineering solo tent, but I want a waterproof breathable fabric.I had a Stephenson 2R for a while (used on Logan, Denali and Peru) that I liked (2.75lbs), but condensation management was to much of a pain for real life use and for slowed down brain at high altitude.

The Outdoor Desing summit extreme look cool but I find the roof way too low for any comfort waiting out storm.

Would you trust the BD Firstlight for a 20 day expedition where major wind are a possibility, and camping is always on rocks (no possibility for a snow wall) ?

One of my option is to have a custom made ID MK1 XL, with the light floor and with only a single small door.
What do you think.

I dont understand why ID use 2 different tent geometry for the MK1 Lite and the MK1 XL. If you look at the spec, the total fabric AREA of the XL is less than the Lite (mainly because it is lower). So with the same features (door, vent, floor type, etc.) the XL should be lighter.

Do backpacking lite plan to test the SD Solomente ?

[Jason Smith]

I would also love to know at what windspeeds the lighthouse starts to suffer when fully staked out. Currently, my climbing partner always argues for more traditional, aka heavy, tents when camping above tree line. I already own the Lighthouse and love it and would love to drop some weight if I had a reliable idea of where the lighthouse would start to fail.

[Mathieu Fagnan]

Hi jason

How do you find your lighthouse. In what condition did you used it. Any rain, snow.

Also I would like to ear about opinion from BPL staff about stormproofness of this tent. Resistance to wind should be a matter of pole strenght and stifness and geometry. Material, i quess, would influence durability but not very much wind resistance, since the poles will always break before the material is teared. Since the Bibler Eldorado is so prized, the Firstlight should perform the same. The only difference looks to be DAC poles on the Firstlight and Easton 7075 on the Bibler.

What do you think about using the Firstlight with stiffer Easton pole (7075 or carbon)?

I have been using elastik (bungee cord) to bypass my guy lines for years. (similar to the one pictured on the Outdoor Desing Summit Extreme review picture). These allow the tent to move a little to the wind without putting to much stree on the guy lines or the tent fabric.

Do you think the guy attachements on the Firstlight are strong enough to support real wind loading (maybe this is where material strenght is important).

Please any Bibler users ou other Firstlight comment.

[David Ure]

Not sure of your exact needs, but have you considered the Big Agnes Sarvis line. Double / single wall freestanding hybrids that when staked down are fairly ‘bomb proof.’ Plus they are very light and pack down decently. Almost like a 3.75 season tent :)

[Jason Smith]

So far I have used it in heavy rain and snow, but have not yet been exposed to high winds or heavy snow loads. I feel it will be able to do both well, but as of yet have not tested it.

Snow
The last time I took it out in snow I was by myself and the low was -10F. It didn’t snow heavy that night, so really have not tested its shedding abilities yet. The tent developed a light layer of condensation on the inner side of the tent, which I brushed off. With only myself to heat it, the tent really had no chance of being warm enough to drive the moisture outside the tent. It was below tree line so no wind.

Wet
Just took the tent on the AT with a friend. I prefer tarp and bivy, but my friend prefers tents. In the past when it has rained heavy it has taken a couple hours to start overwhelming the fabric of the tent. This time right from the start, a drops seemed to make it through the tent, every 30 seconds or so, seems to come for the middle where the two poles meet. It was not bad, friend didn’t mind, but it was annoying. I have heard of individuals with this tent not suffering at all from heavy rains. Tomorrow, I am going to clean the tent, and retreat with DWR, and check to see if I missed anything with the silicon sealant. I will tell you how this goes, hopefully it will rain this weekend, so I can test it out and tell you.

Basically extended heavy wet weather so far overwhelms it, no worse than the condensation in some tents I’ve been in though and it dries fast.

I like your ideas of increasing the storm worthiness of the tent. If you get the tent I hope you post how it turns out as I hope to use the lighthouse more above treeline this winter

[EndoftheTrail]

No direct experience, but take a look at the Sierra Designs Solomente if you haven’t already. Not the absolute lightest, but still pretty darn light — freestanding, with wp/b tent fabric.

[David Lewis]

I used to own an MSR Hubba and I think you’d be hard pressed to find any other double walled, self-supporting tent with a vestibule and enough room to sit up inside for less that it’s 3 pounds of weight. It was a nice little unit… but I returned it to purse the ultra-light idea of using a tarp.

[Anonymous]

Last week I spent about 36 hours in a BD Lighthouse, including an entire day (about 11 hours) of steady to downpour rain(without much wind). We had a few drips, this from the top and seams, especially around the velcro. Any leakage appeared to be from the seams, and not directly through the fabric. I’ve reinforced the waterproofing along the seams, and I would be confident facing the next deluge having had the Lighthouse tested so severely with minimum problems.

I use the Fibraplex carbon fiber poles, which are probably less robust than the aluminum poles, but are about 8 oz. lighgter. I also use titanium stakes and the Gossamer Gear polycro ground cloth. These upgrades really make for a light package. I didn’t have a vestibule, which made it tough to keep the inside dry with ingress/egress, and the packs got wet despite garbage bags. It would have been nice to have a vestibule with two, with solo no there is need for vestibule.

Stakes:
http://www.rei.com/product/47799487.htm?vcat=REI_SSHP_CAMPING_TOC
Groundcloth:
http://www.gossamergear.com/cgi-bin/gossamergear/polycryo_ground_cloth.html
Poles:
http://www.fibraplex.com/tentpoles2A.htm

[Mathieu Fagnan]

Thanks for your comments

I think the Firstlight might be a ggod thing for general ligth backpacking but I dont think I will trust it in mountaineering situations

The sierra designs Solomente looks pretty interesting.

If anybody as exoperience with it please let me know.

[Randy Brissey]

I returned last week from hiking a few sections of the Colorado Trail where I had 3 days to live in the Lighthouse during rain. During the first day of rain (maybe an hours worth) there was no signs of leakage…….but on the next rain the story was different.

The first rain (really light drizzle) started at about 3 in the afternoon. I decided to sit indoors due to mosquito attacks. There was no signs of leakage again. This scenario of on and off again misting continued for some 5 hours or so. When I finished up dinner (around 7 or so) I came back to the tent and noticed that the fabric had wetted through where the poles was up against at the peak of the tent. No appreciable water inside yet.

At 2:00 in the morning I woke up to the sound of rain on the canopy AND water droplets (read mist)striking my face. I spent the next few minutes bagging all potential water damage items and checking the floor. The end of my sleeping bag was damp (but not wet).
In a few more hours I awoke to the sleeping bag a little damper and the complete tent canopy saturated. Once the sun came out from behind the clouds the tent dryed very fast.
After that night and the warnings of fellow backpackers about the “Colorado Monsoon” I started to seriously consider the Sierra Designs Solomente………..

good hiking, Randy

P.S. The tent was completely seamsealed before.

[David Lewis]

Randy… I’m not familiar with the Solomente… I just took a quick look at it now… but for less weight (slightly) and the same basic design and head space (but a less floor space) you could get a double wall MSR Hubba. The Hubba is a great little tent. And of course, you could use just the fly as a tarp too… if it’s not Monsoon season :)

[Randy Brissey]

Hello David,

I think that I have been biased by one event that transpired many years ago on the John Muir Trail…..

We had a group of 6 for a trip of one month. 30 days, no bear problems and no rain……..but!

One night at Thousand Island Lake area we were hit with a severe windstorm, 40-60 mph as a best guess. I had the only tent that could be completely closed off. All of the other 4 tents were 3-season ones with open mesh panels beneath a fly. Within a half hour a few compatriots were begging to sleep with me (in my tent).

When morning came I saw why. The other tents were inundated with dust. Not only were the tents covered inside and out but the sleeping bags (inside) and the others faces made them look like coal miners. Ears, eyes……every square inch of skin grey.

So from that summer onward I would never venture forth to the mountains without at least a convertable tent……..

Scarred for life……..but at least it was not me!

a good laugh to think back upon, Randy

[paul johnson]

Randy, William, Jason,

thanks for the very detailed accounts. such info is surely helpful. it is much appreciated. questions about Epic fabric (particularly its water resistance) pop up here on these Forums nearly every week or two. “real-life” experiences like yours really help to clarify the degree of water resistance one can expect. it also explains MUCH clearer than the mfr’s wording, viz. “in all but the most extreme conditions”, precisely what those “extreme conditions” really ARE. ever think about adding reviews of the BD Firstlight to the User Reviews?

keep them posts and reviews comin’.

Many thanks,
pj

[paul johnson]

I know five people who had an identical dust experience in the Grand Canyon. Drowning in dust by the morning. Quite a mess inside the tents. Five diff. models (TNF, MSR & SD tents included) of 3-season dbl-wall shelters were used. No tarps. My guess (and it’s just that, a guess) is that tarps might have fared better (tarp campers please set me straight here). I’m thinking that while more dust might have passed through the tarp, FAR less would have remained in it & on everything, than what happened in the tents. Seemed like dust that made it through the no-see-um mesh, settled out when the wind velocity dropped upon entering the large volume of air in the tent and tended to stay there until morning when it was shaken out.

I’m very interested in knowing from tarp campers if they have fared better in similar dusty conditions. Obviously, I don’t tarp camp yet, but someone just gave me a GG SpinnTwinn tarp so I could get started. Someone please educate me. I’d appreciate it.

Many thanks,
pj

Edit:

I should say that he also gave me myriads of other barely or unused gear (including a Mariposa & some other items). Very kind individual with a large heart.

[Joshua Mitchell]

“I’m very interested in knowing from tarp campers if they have fared better in similar dusty conditions. Obviously, I don’t tarp camp yet, but someone just gave me a GG SpinnTwinn tarp so I could get started. Someone please educate me. I’d appreciate it.”

:D – don’t I wish…

Anyhow, I’d like to hear your impressions when you get around to using it.

[Ryan Jordan]

>> I’m very interested in knowing from tarp campers if they have fared better in similar dusty conditions.

It’s late but I can’t resist.

I circumnavigated Fort Peck Reservoir in NE Montana many years ago. It’s dusty there. Every night was this wonderful summer wind that blew this fine clay dust everywhere. I started the trek with a nice airy three season tent, lots of mesh. Of course, bad idea, for the reasons above.

So I swapped to a tarp, thinking the exact rationale that Paul articulates.

This was a less than fun experience. Not only does the dust settle in and around your tarp, it creates DUNES against your sleeping bag, gets INTO your sleeping bag, into your clothing, into your gear, and subsequently into every orifice of your body.

In two short nights of tarp camping the windswept clay plains of Montana in mid-August, I was right back to a tent. But not the same tent. I switched to a four season tent with NO mesh in the inner tent: a Hilleberg Akto (original model). It worked beautifully for the task at hand.

Today, I think I’d take a tarp, and a breathable bivy I could fully seal. A pack cover or big garbage bag to store gear, and a big packtowl for an evening bath every night!

[paul johnson]

Dr. J,

really appreciate the input. the dune issue crossed my mind, but was hoping it would be preferable to a 3-season tent. guess, based upon your experience and suggestion, i should use one of my bivy shelters (all my gear fits inside [food hanging outside]) & can be sealed up pretty tight, leaving just enough open for a small amt of air-xchnge. The eVENT “Uni”, as you know, has a “snorkel”/air-tunnel with drawcord adjustement, also. Only thing ’bout the Uni is the minimal bug netting for hot nights without dust. Not sure if Epic fabric bivies will allow enough air exchange through the fabric to prevent suffication if it’s totally sealed – guess i’m not willing to perform this (possibly one-time) experiment.

BTW, we don’t know what dust/sand storms are. Young co-worker returned ~2mos ago fr/service in Iraq as a helicopter crew chief. He had video of a couple of dust storms. From a distance, massive walls (clouds of dust, but more like walls – at least hundreds of feet high [maybe a couple thousand??? – hard to tell in the video & didn’t ask him. it was miles wide] and coming right down to the ground) – similar to that movie “The Mummy” with Brendan Fraser (sp???). He continued to record just a bit longer even as he began to be enveloped in the dust – then he ran for cover. They used to “dig out” just like we do after a snow storm – and we think wet snow is heavy – try sand!!!

[Jake Dury]

I have the Lighthouse and used it all over Central and South America. Due to the interior pole design the tent is really pretty sturdy. It also keeps out water very well. I was in several deluges where water got trapped between the tent floor and the ground cloth. Sometimes it looked as if we were sitting in a lake but water never leaked through. Condensation can be an issue as in any single wall but I really didn’t find it bad. I use a down bag and never had any issues. Just try not to rub all over the wall.

If you are in an extreme alpine area (like Aconagua) I would try to set the tent up so one of the narrow ends is into the wind. If large gusts hit from the side I don’t think it is as stable.

I definitely wouldn’t consider this a mountaniering tent and maybe for something like Aconagua you should get something a little more heavy duty. But it is a great tent that can take a surprising beating.

[Jimmy Vick]

I just scored ( or think I scored ) a Mountain HardWear VL wing tent that has been lightly used on craiglist for 100 bucks. Can you tell me about the problems you had with the delamination of the fabric?

Thanks,

Jim

[Anonymous]

Hi Mathieu,
For a mountain the size of Aconcagua, I wouldn't try to cut corners too much in terms of weight, if I were you-too much at stake. You really can't go wrong with the ID MK1 Lite or perhaps a Bibler. They're WPB and bombproof in design and construction. Also pricey. Good luck, whatever you choose.

[Ryan Teale]

On Patagonia.com you can click on Shop by Sport/Alpine Climbing/Ambassadors/Steve House and check out the reports from Nanga Parbat. In the slideshow there are a few shots of them using the Firstlight. There are few videos on gear and clothing as well.

[dan mchale]

Steve House is so far beyond the normal human that it would be dangerous to blindly copy his gear list. Steve and his buddies are so hot and fast that no matter what happened to a tent, they would not need it for very long anyway.

[Ryan Teale]

Dan, I totally agree that it would be nuts to blindly follow Steve House's gear or route choices. You are obviously much more experienced in these matters than I, just thought it would be an interesting read. The Firstlight is modeled after a tried and tested Bibler design so I guess the discussion would have to turn to the tear resistance of epic fabric and the strength of the seams when sewn through the epic fabric. Maybe you could double pole the Firstlight if you were confident in its epic fabric and the seam strength. I imagine on Aconcagua you could also be camped where snow walls could be built. There may also be rock walls built in the more established camps as I have seen in Patagonia.

[R K]

I have the firstlight and have had it in wind gusts that I estimate were in the range of 50-60 mph. It was gusting so hard that I would have to squat down to prevent myself from being blown over. The tent was well staked and survived all right but there were a few times where I thinking the tent might take off. I hate flying.

My hiking partner just got back form Aconcagua a few weeks ago. He took a Hillberg Nallo 2 and he was happy with it.

[dan mchale]

Ryan; He did mention the scenario of no snow walls. There is a remote possibility that the epic has higher tear strength than some of the cheap heavier ripstops out there. Has to do with the treatment in manufacturing. Hilleberg is the only company I know of that actually talks about fabric strength in tents. Most of the threads at various sites are about breathabilty of the First Light. It might be a good idea to go with BD recommendations for it. I'm not going to cut up my BD bivisac to test the tear strength!

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