My “wind shirt” rant…

[Justin Baker]

Owen, have you tried the black diamond alpine start?

[Adam Kilpatrick]

In my (n=1) anecdotal experience in Australia and Japan;
Japan-you see them sometimes.
Australia-never. Unless I was to run into one of the ~dozen regular BPL members I don't think many people know what they are. The few that are for sale in stores, are most likely bought by newbs who think they are rain jackets…

[Anonymous]

My Rab eVent jacket comes in a hair over 12oz, which puts me right around 1lb for jacket + windshirt. Definitely room to go lighter here.

For me, one of the hardest points to regulate temperature is along my forearms. They're just big old radiators for me, and very difficult to vent well with the stiffer, thicker fabric of my rain shell. When I'm on the move even with the jacket fully unzipped, the insides of my sleeves are quickly dripping with sweat. With the windshirt, I can just push the cuffs up to my elbows when I start to get too warm. Easy.

[Ken Larson]

"The windshirt role is beyond the capabilities of the waterproof garments as much as the waterproofness is beyond the capabilities of a windshirt. Take both (and wear the waterproofs only when it really rains)"
Inaki Diaz de Etura

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/101330/index.html

[Bob Moulder]

For me, one of the hardest points to regulate temperature is along my forearms. They're just big old radiators for me, and very difficult to vent well with the stiffer, thicker fabric of my rain shell. When I'm on the move even with the jacket fully unzipped, the insides of my sleeves are quickly dripping with sweat. With the windshirt, I can just push the cuffs up to my elbows when I start to get too warm. Easy.

My experience exactly. And also the hood — super quick way to for me to regulate temp, wearing either a nylon baseball cap or fleece beanie.

I began my quest last year to 'make peace' with damp/wet/rain and made a lot of progress. Used to be, if I was caught in the rain it was because the weather forecasters made a serious error. Going to see this spring how the extra ventilation of the Packa works out when it is seriously raining all day. That's gonna be fun.

[Owen McMurrey]

"Owen, have you tried the black diamond alpine start?"
Haven't tried anything yet, but from what I've read so far, I'd be most likely to give the latest Arc'teryx Squamish a shot. 5.5oz, and Richard lists it at 53CFM.

It's all talk right now, and already too warm where I live to hike in anything more than a synthetic T until next fall. As soon as morning traffic dies down, I'm headed to TN where it's a little cooler.

[bjc]

Aaron,
What synthetic did you use for the rain jacket? Thanks.

[David Chenault]

Owen, if abrasion resistance isn't a big priority something in unlined Pertex Equilibrium would probably suit you very well. If you want something burlier the Alpine Start or rab Boreas/Ventus are a good idea.

[Stephen M]

Eric,

Any reply from you?

[Kate Magill]

When I lived in the Northeast I rarely used a windshirt except during shoulder season, and I never used a button-front long sleeve shirt. Now that I'm living west of the Rockies, I pretty much always want one or the other, but never both. On a trip where I'm more concerned with keeping cool (and sun protection), I'd take a button-down nylon or polyester shirt as my long sleeve layer. On a trip where I'm more concerned about keeping warm, I'd bring a windshirt–preferably an anorak style with a hood. Do I really need both? No, but having both makes my gear closet a smidge more versatile/comfortable in a wider range of conditions. Where we live and the type of trips we take probably informs our preferences for one or the other.

[Ryan Smith]

"Admittedly, I don't see that many people when I'm out, but since I started backpacking again in 2009, I've done about a year's worth of hiking in 10 states.
Except for the Marmot Ion I mentioned before, I have never actually seen a windshirt outside of a store."

Same here. Most of my hiking is in the East, and most BPL'ers are in the West so I always just assumed they hadn't caught on here yet. Now that I do a western trip each year I still don't see any.

Ryan

[Randy Nelson]

"Admittedly, I don't see that many people when I'm out, but since I started backpacking again in 2009, I've done about a year's worth of hiking in 10 states.
Except for the Marmot Ion I mentioned before, I have never actually seen a windshirt outside of a store."

"Same here. Most of my hiking is in the East, and most BPL'ers are in the West so I always just assumed they hadn't caught on here yet. Now that I do a western trip each year I still don't see any."

I don't really notice what other people are wearing or even carrying, usually just shelters. Mainly because I see more traditional backpackers and their gear doesn't interest me. So I'm not sure how popular they are. I didn't get one until reading about them on here. Glad I did though. Here's a picture of two Houdinis in the wild.

[Anonymous]

"Does anyone else also do this "multiple use" clothing strategy?"

I do.

[Anonymous]

"We are one people, divided by windshirts. I'm with Eric. If I stop at a pass for lunch with views and it's windy, out comes my Event. Often, it's so windy on a pass that a windshirt wouldn't really cut it–but I run cold. If it's raining and I'm hiking, a windshirt will quickly wet out. If I'm not hiking and it's raining, I want my Event jacket. If it's windy and I'm hiking, I still have never needed a windshirt: I'm on the go and my body heat is keeping me warm,or I'll put on a second capilene layer. So when do I need a windshirt?

Finally, I've hiked over passes in sleet for six hours in a Rab Demand three ply event and it kept me dry; a windshirt would have been useless. People claim that event will always eventually wet out; in my experience it's the best of available options in rain or sleet, except possibly a poncho–but I hate the flapping."

+1 to your entire post.

I would add that a poncho is worthless if it is really windy and raining, also when moving off trail on rough terrain/bushwhacking.

[Jerry Adams]

I made an M50 rain jacket – essentially the same as a windshirt – maybe 5 ounces because it's longer and bigger around

Walking around Mt Hood last year it was pretty good. Weather report said no rain. Sprinkled once. Windy some. It worked pretty good. EVent rain coat weighs 16 ounces better for serious rain. Nice I could use 5 ounces rather than 16.

[Aaron Sorensen]

You would have to make a robe out of M50 to = 5oz.

Even with a 1/2oz zipper, that adds up to about 7 yards of fabric.

Quilts with M50 have about 5oz of fabric in them.

[jscott]

Kate reminds me of another reason that a windshirt is redundant for my multi-day hikes: I always wear a nylon sun shirt. It has a very tight weave and is a kind of windshirt in that regard.

My experience is limited to a Houdini; maybe that's prejudicing my view. But other, beefier windshirts weigh a lot more and so seem even less likely to make it into my backpack. One person mentioned that their Rab shell and a windshirt come in at a pound, and that that was too much. Precisely. If something has to give, it's not going to be my rain protection, especially since that also functions as a windshirt.

There's a common claim that rain shells will always eventually wet out, so you might as well just use a windshirt. That's not been my experience; my shell has saved my butt a number of times. And what's the alternative? A windshirt in four hours of sleet and then cold rain for several more? (Last year in July in the Sierra.)I don't think so.

For day hikes, I can easily see the usefulness of a windshirt. ditto for snowshoeing or skiing on bluebird days.

I'm curious how a windshirt functions in warm and humid conditions, as mentioned earlier.

[Jerry Adams]

"You would have to make a robe out of M50 to = 5oz"

Maybe a little less than that – it was a jacket – hood, zipper, pockets, lining on hood and shoulders,…

[Randy Nelson]

"Instead of a wind shirt I carry my eVent rain park and use it as a wind shirt when necessary. Works very well and saves the weight of a wind shirt."

This is the multiple use gear forum. Isn't the point of multi-use to save weight? It sounds like the eVent jackets weigh more than some wind shirts and rain jackets combined (at least what I use). Shouldn't the question be not why would you carry a wind shirt but why would you carry an eVent rain jacket? :) And I am kidding. What works for me here in the Rockies may not work for someone else (even here) or in wetter climes. But this thread does seem backwards.

[Nick Gatel]

Some people don't want one, or don't want to try one. That is okay. It is not up to others to convince them otherwise.

I wear mine on every single trip. I wear it a lot on each trip. Sometimes I sleep in it. It is always getting dirty. It gets stinky. It gets washed a lot. The DWR is long gone, and trying to constantly renew the DWR is an exercise in futility. So, it only function is wind shirt. I have been using a wind shirt (we used to call them wind breakers) for probably 30 or 40 years backpacking.

A wind shirt may not work for you. A few years ago I did a November trip with Craig Wisner. Most of the time Craig wore just a shirt. He would have been uncomfortable in a wind shirt. I wore a T shirt and the wind shirt continuously, and would have been extremely cold without it.

In the past 5-6 years I have hiked in about 30 states and always use my Houdini. So you can't say I am just a Cali hiker.

Sometimes it goes over a base layer, over a base and insulating layer. Under a poncho I get even less condensation, because the wind shirt "pulls" moisture out and it hovers between the wind shirt and the well vented poncho. I bet it would help the eVent and GTX users to wear a wind shirt under their rain jackets to keep from sweating so much in the rain.

More thoughts the Houdini

[Anonymous]

"It sounds like the eVent jackets weigh more than some wind shirts and rain jackets combined (at least what I use). Shouldn't the question be not why would you carry a wind shirt but why would you carry an eVent rain jacket? :)"

I hike mostly in the Sierra, and my rain jacket, a Montane Minimus anorak, weighs 5 oz. It looks more like a windshirt than a rain jacket, but sheds both wind and rain very well, and so I use it for both. It is not eVvent, and does not breathe well enough to hike in without getting wet from the inside. However, I have long since learned that it is better to be warm and wet than cold and wet, so it's no big deal for me as my base layer dries very quickly. Like Jeffrey, I never have felt the need to hike in a windshirt, so its prime application is not important to me. My only uses for a windshirt, when I had one, were to go over my insulation layers in camp or to put on at rest stops, and my Minimus serves those function admirably. For other conditions, especially desert hiking, I can see where a windshirt would be preferable, as also for those who feel the need for a windshirt while on the move in windy conditions. For hiking in the PNW, where I live, I use my ID eVent rain jacket as both, for the same reasons, just with a little beefier jacket than the Minimus. For snowshoeing and day hikes in really cold weather, down in the teens/twenties up here, I'll use a Rab Boreas for its ability to cut the wind enough for comfort while breathing very well. It is far too heavy and dries far too slowly to be of use on extended trips. As always, YMMV.

[Ian]

"Please answer this question: What function(s) do you think a wind shirt, like the 2012 Houdini, provides and what do you currently use to address the function(s) including the weight(s)?"

This works for me.

I have some sort of coated Marmot non-precip no pit zips cheapie rain jacket that I bought off of Gear Swap and a not so cheapie Arcteryx Squamish. I'll have to weight them later. The weight of my Squamish is close to the weight of my silk weight baselayer top that I don't bring anymore. Since I don't carry a silk-weight baselayer or any kind of fleece or puffy in above freezing temperatures, I don't consider my Squamish to be a luxury item.

I don't need or carry any insulation on trips where the lowest expected temperature won't dip below 32*F. As long as I'm moving, I don't need to wear more than a t shirt and a nylon long sleeved button down shirt (I wear both at all temperatures). Having both of these jackets gives me some options on how I can regulate my temperature in varying conditions. While it doesn't provide loft, wearing the Squamish under my rain jacket does help.

It's also great for sleeping in to keep my sleeping bag clean.

[Paul Magnanti]

>> "we used to call them wind breakers"

I find the main difference between a "windbreaker" and a "wind shirt" is the price tag. ;)

Being serious, they are functionally the same. One is (generally) made of lighter material than the other and, most importantly, aimed a different consumer.

But even that line is getting blurry…at least in terms of materials and weight.

http://bit.ly/1GuEWYp

Don't know the weight, but I would not be surprised if it is not quite the 3oz or less of a higher end wind shirt, this Wally World windbreaker is 6oz roughly at a guess.

Still a different consumer base, though.

[Michael Ray]

> I have never carried a separate wind shirt. I'll wear a tightly woven nylon shirt if I need bug protection.

> Instead of a wind shirt I carry my eVent rain park and use it as a wind shirt when necessary. Works very well and saves the weight of a wind shirt.

> Does anyone else also do this "multiple use" clothing strategy?

Yes, except I always hike in a tightly woven nylon shirt and pants. DriDucks (now called UltraLite2) are more breathable than eVent. When I need to put the jacket on, I also typically hike with the front open unless it's pouring and pretty cold.

At this point it's not so much the weight savings (since it's only like 3 oz) but the expense for something I haven't seen the need for yet. The only time I've sweat in my jacket is when I failed to remove it soon enough while going uphill on a cold morning.

[Anonymous]

I think Nisley tested propore (Dri Ducks, Frogg Toggs, etc) to rate to about a .33 CFM. Conversely, the best eVent rates at .5 CFM, making the best eVent noticeably more breathable.

I think Dri Ducks may feel more breathable or what not, because of the over sizing allows more convection, so in practice as a system it may be slightly more breathable than the typical eVent jacket, but not the actual fabric/material itself.

If we're talking colder weather, then nothing beats combining a light weight or UL windjacket with an 8 oz, fleece (paramo type) pump liner midlayer. Extremely adaptable and versatile system. (though, you may find like i did, that you might want to beef up the WR of the shoulders of the windjacket you use).

I'm all about that flexibility, that flexibility, no fixity.

If money grew on trees, and i had a lot of money trees growing in my backyard, i would buy the eVent packa for warmer weather, cut off the hood and use a wide brimmed eVent hat.

[Author]

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