Microfleece 100

[Brian Lindahl]

Richard, based on your measurements…

The Xenon, stuffed, loses more than half it's clo? Looking at the previous charts, it looks as if a 100 weight fleece has about 1/4 as warm as a Xenon. If we can extrapolate the 25% improvement by putting a wind-blocking barrier over the fleece, it looks as if the Xenon, once used in a backpacking scenario, slowly becomes only about 50% warmer than a 100 weight fleece with a windproof barrier?

Considering most backpackers already have a windproof barrier (rain jacket), it's curious to see that a 200 weight fleece paired with the rain jacket will likely be warmer than the Xenon, and other comparable synthetic garments, over it's lifetime, and at a lesser weight, as well (assuming 10-12oz for the fleece).

No hood, of course, but most people have some sort of hat for sleeping in.

This makes for a strong case against owning one of the thinner synthetic insulated garments (which are significantly more expensive, as well). Of course, packed size may change the equation a bit.

Personally, I like the thin synthetic insulated garments for coupling with a softshell (backcountry skiing). They work well as a quick layer to add in wet, snowy, cold, windy environments. They block 100% of the wind (unlike the softshell) and add some insulation, both of which are often needed together in alpine environments, when leaving treeline.

[Richard Nisley]

Brian,

You asked, "The Xenon, stuffed, loses more than half it's clo?"

Yes. After a 3.5 week backpacking trip in AK, my previously new RAB Xenon tested at a 47% reduced insulation value.

You asked, "If we can extrapolate the 25% improvement by putting a wind-blocking barrier over the fleece, it looks as if the Xenon, once used in a backpacking scenario, slowly becomes only about 50% warmer than a 100 weight fleece with a windproof barrier?

Close. A 1/4 zip 100 wt fleece, with a properly sized wind-shirt or hard-shell over it, has an Iclo of ~.424 versus a RAB Xenon, after 3.5 of weeks of backpacking, at .642; so, the RAB Xenon is only 34% warmer. A related question is, does a synthetic garment's reduced insulation from use still provide you adequate static insulation value for your anticipated low temperature?

[Lachlan Fysh]

Hi Richard,

Is the drop on the xenon a permanent thing due to sustained compression of the insulation or will it bounce back after a wash?

And in either case, do you think the 3.5 week use is a bit of a plateau / worst case out for a while? (e.g. 7 weeks won't result in another 50% drop)

[Richard Nisley]

Lachlan,

50% is a clo loss plateau for short-staple synthetic insulations and it cannot be recovered. The first 30% occurs quickly and the next 20% a little slower.

I have MUCH less lab test data for continuous synthetic insulation (two Montbell Thermawrap Pro Hoodies). No stuffing occurred in these tests. After two years of casual wear there is a 40% clo loss.

It is interesting to note that the latest fleece versions (Thermal Pro) will also experience a maximum of 30% clo loss after approximately two weeks of conventional backpacking use. In contrast to short staple synthetics, they will recover 100% of their clo value by vigorous shaking or fluffing in a dryer for a short time. Classic fleece doesn't experience a clo loss with backpacking use but, its clo/oz is lower than an equivalent warmth Thermal Pro version.

[Lachlan Fysh]

Very interesting on the thermal pro – I'd been wanting a mid layer warmer than the cap 3 zip neck I currently use but not as warm as the R1 I also own… Cap 4 seemed the logical choice, but maybe something more traditional will work better in extended use.

The synthetic issue is also very relevant for a planned sleeping quilt purchase… I had been thinking of going to a synthetic bag for a potentially wet trip and was figuring I'd counter the extra weight by only going 30f instead of my 20f down quilt, but I guess a 30f synthetic bag doesn't stay as 30f for long… Probably a bigger issue than the moisture degradation I'm trying to avoid in the down bag.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Richard,

Thank you for your new research. It is very enlightening – and money saving.

It would appear that good (700 – 800 fill wt.) DWR treated down, such as Dri Dowm, would give the best weight-to-thermal value AND maintain that value (after repeated storage stuffing, and exposure to humidity) far better than any long fiber synthetic like Climashield, which has one of the best retentions (after repeated storage stuffings) of thermal value of synthetic fibers.

BTW, are the fibers in Polartec Power Stretch hollow? If so perhaps this would partially account for its high thermal value.

[Steve K]

Richard,

You mention something that perked my ears up here:

> It is interesting to note that the latest fleece versions (Thermal Pro) will also experience a maximum of 30% clo loss after approximately two weeks of conventional backpacking use. In contrast to short staple synthetics, they will recover 100% of their clo value by vigorous shaking or fluffing in a dryer for a short time.

Since Polartec Alpha is supposedly based on Thermal Pro High-Loft sandwiched between air permeable shells, we might be able to expect a similar, full recovery, unlike with traditional fills like PrimaLoft Gold. Do you agree?

And here:
> Classic fleece doesn't experience a clo loss with backpacking use but, its clo/oz is lower than an equivalent warmth Thermal Pro version.

I have a 300wt fleece that I wear often at home for maybe two years now. I lean on my elbows a lot, and I have found that the material seems considerably thinner at the elbows. Is this not a permanent result of repeated compression?

[Richard Nisley]

Eric,

DWR down does appear to be better value than synthetics do to rapid synthetic degradation. The big question for me is WHICH DWR down is best. There have international (IDFB) standards for testing DWR down for two years. Yet, none of the vendors will tell you their IDFB test results for the standard tests. This prevents a consumer from comparing their options like they can with EN 13537 for warmth.

All that IDFL will say is that untreated down lasts an average of 22 minutes on the IDFB shake test. The various DWR vendors IDFL has done IDFB tests on vary from ~40 minutes up to 1,000 minutes.

You mentioned Dri-Down but, Dri-Down will not tell you their IDFB numbers for the standard tests, only for their proprietary test.

Power Stretch fibers are not hollow.

[Richard Nisley]

Stephen,

I think Polartec Alpha will recover its loft fully from vigorous shaking or tumbling in a dryer. I have not tested the various Polartec Alpha variants.

Regarding classic fleece, I tested the torso area after repeated stuffings and wearings. It wouldn't surprise me if the elbows or knees might degrade do to the much higher pressures involved.

[Mike M]

hmmm- while primaloft and other similar syns are warmer than Polartec Alpha ounce for ounce, if what Richard says is true and they (Alpha) recover most of their loft, the warmth might a lot closer to par after a few packing/unpackings?????

[James holden]

i still have a few synth jackets … but except for my el cheapo old navy one, i only use em when i need them … never for daily wear honestly by the time youve added in the degradation … a good thermal pro fleece and a windshell is just as effective as a synth puffy not to mention you can wear it daily and itll laugh right back at you … and you can wring it out and itll be dry enough to wear since the alpha is based on thermal pro … ;)

[Justin Baker]

Eric, what thermal pro jackets are you using? I have the melanzana high loft hoodie… super crazy warm. It's 300 weight thermal pro at 14 ounces in medium.

[Allen C]

Full zip light fleece with hood and chest pocket, but no hand pockets. http://www.outdoorresearch.com/en/mens/jackets/mens-radiant-hybrid-hoody.html

[Brett Peugh]

I would like to get something like the MB Chameese in an XXL. Good price point for something like that.

[Brian Lindahl]

My patagonina's Micro-D Fleece Pullover comes in at about 6oz. The lightest 100-weight fleece I've found so far.

[Mike M]

^ that is light! my MH Microchill pullover is a little over 7 oz (size large) Allen- I have a Radiant Hoodie- it's a nice piece, nothing that I've worked into my backpacking wardrobe, but use it winter for high aerobic stuff- trail running, snowshoeing, x-country skiing- it's a little heavy (14-ish oz), but does work well in the cold

[Brett Peugh]

People had mentioned that there was a microfleece jacket at Target that was usually pretty cheap. Went out there last night and I think it is no longer something they make. Does anyone have a model name I can look by?

[J C]

I'm curious where the new R3 hoody fits into all this. It feels significantly warmer than my old R2 but is also 150g heavier, some of which is in the extra set of pockets and a fair bit in the hood. The fabric is listed as 8.9oz vs. the R2's 6.1oz. I wonder if it's more efficient than the R2, and whether it's warmer than two Micro D's layered together + a balaclava which would be roughly the same weight I guess. My hunch is yes but that could be just wishful thinking.

[Dale Wambaugh]

http://shop.hellyhansen.com/us/item/daybreaker-fleece-hoodie-50934/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=product_search&utm_campaign=google_product_feed&gclid=COyc9eSy6cgCFYZefgodcowF_w Pockets, hood, full zip, 100w polartec, $68

[Justin Baker]

Mike, are you referring to a hooded microchill?

[Brad Rogers]

Just in case anyone is wondering I bought a Lands End 1/4 fleece made with 100wt Polartec Aircore fleece that was 8.8oz in a Men's Medium. It was $17 on sale. I also bought a Rab 1/4 fleece made with 100wt Polartec classic and it was 8oz in a slightly trimmer cut Men's Medium. It was $32 at STP.

[Mike M]

Justin- mine is just a pullover crew JC- the R3 is your "typical" long nap, high loft fleece- it's obviously warmer than it's 100 wt counterparts, but would be too warm for most on the move scenarios, the 100 wt covers a lot more ground in on the move situations. If given the choice, I would take two 100 wt garments over a single R3- it would give you a heck of lot more flexibility. I could see the R3 useful for cold & wet trips used as an insulating layer, but in conjunction with a 100 wt fleece- used for when you're on the go I was torn last year at the 2015 BMO on bringing my MH Monkeyman 200- basically the equivalent to the R3- high loft, long nap Thermal Pro or my down jacket- the weather forecast was very favorable and rolled the dice and brought my down jacket (roughly half the weight), the forecast held true and I was good to go, this year if the forecast is less favorable, good chance the MH Monkey will go. BTW I did bring my Microchill and that saw a lot of use :) Mike

[Justin Baker]

Mike, have you seen the melanzana high loft hoodie? I think it's superior to every other high loft hoodie. It's 300 weight polartec at 14 ounces in size medium. Incredibly lofty. You can throw that on over your wet layers and the breathability lets everything dry out.

[Mike M]

Justin- I hadn't, but just looked it up- not too bad at all with a hood and w/ 300 wt PT under a pound :) Mike

[Anonymous]

To Richard Nisley: While looking at your chart, i wondered if it's possible that some fabrics gain a relatively higher percentage of increase in thermal insulation from a windjacket over same than others? More specifically, it seems that Cap 4 material might gain a higher percentage of increased thermal insulation with a windshell over it than say a regular 100 wt micro fleece? I've noticed that my Cap 4 hoody seems fairly warm with a windjacket on over it. I tend to size up a bit even though it's a baselayer and used for wicking. I don't like the feel of super tight/form fitting fabrics.

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