Hacked discussion of tents? restored

[DGoggins]

Oh yeah…also wanted to ask. So I attached shockcord to the midpanel tieout then spectra line. MLD recommends the same with their midpanel tieouts (actually, shockcord comes attached now to new shelters). Basically, if a person gets tension on the midpanel tieout without shockcord, you run the possibility in wind that the midpanel tieout receives too much pressure instead of the brunt of the wind force being absorbed by the perimeter tieouts.

However….if I want to do the pole method where you are clove hitching a pole/stick to levitate the mid panel tieout, b/c of the shockcord there is not enough tension between the pole and shelter, so sometimes the pole falls. Do you have shockcord on it? In the video its hard to tell but it looks like there are two different diameter cords ->

Negative on the shockcord… just using the lawson glowire like all the other cordage.

I negate the need by not having the panels super taut when I set it up. Explained this in my other video:

https://youtu.be/n0Cme3oNZf0?t=361 at the 6 minute mark.

[JCH]

I purchased my Duplex in Nov 2013 so assume I have one of first run. As delivered the corner and door stake points just have small grosgrain loops. I have added the LineLoc 3s (with grosgrain loop) from Zpacks to all 4 corners and the apex guylines as others have

I have never had a problem with getting the doors taut if I do 2 things:
1. Stake the corners such that the stakes form more or less a straight line with the pole. Originally I thought a more “radial” staking of the corner guys made sense, but all that did was cause the door problems like that described by John and John.

The dark blue blob in the background is my stake bag placed over the far stake so you can better see it's position.

2. Keep the apex guyline stake point close to the door stake point.

Also, I have noticed that the corner guys need to be loosened if I want the doors shut tight and tightened if I want (one or both) doors open.

I share the frustration with threading the carabiner through the fabric loops and with the little square toggle for keeping the doors rolled up. My solution involved adding these toggles from Mil-Spec Monkey (http://milspecmonkey.com/store/hardware-diy/135-itw-tac-toggle.html) to the door tie-out points and the hold-open points. After experimenting with cord loop attachment options, I finally just attached the toggles to the existing fabric loops with tiny wire ties.

These door tie-outs work great. You simply slip one or both toggles in or out of the carabiner by only slightly loosening the door cinch. If wind makes me worry that the toggles could slip out, I can still thread the carabiner through the loops.

Lastly, I found I get a much better pitch with the support poles set at 115 cm (45”) rather than 120 cm (48”). In fact, I have never encountered a condition where the 120 cm setting worked better than 115.

[Bob Moulder]

This morning I was able to carry out the modification I've been thinking about for quite a while and I must say I'm very satisfied with the results.

With this mod, the door panels can be opened and closed from inside the tent, right from your sleeping bag. One cord is used to tension the lineloc and stretch the panels taut, and another cord releases tension and lets you pull the panels all the way into the living area to unclip.

I have done a VIDEO demonstrating the system in use.

Photos showing overview and details:

[DGoggins]

@John Holmes

Thank you very much for the pics…very informative. Great pitching ideas. Few questions.

1. It looks like you are using a piece of polycryo (which I also always use under everything), with spectra line and a mini lineloc. However, what is that attachment type? ->

2. Holy moly…that is a tight door pitch with no gap. It almost looks like its overlapping even at the bottom? ->

Kudos on that. I'll have to experiment with loosening the corner guylines to make the doors pitch tight. I'm guessing that you can get an overlap by using the tac toggles….since you can put one tac toggle on the other side of the other tac toggle inside the carabiner. With the original zpacks setup, you had the loops that you had to thread through the carabiner but you couldn't overlap one over the other so they were still spaced apart from each other.

You know…I can see that maybe with the one carabiner it could be a slight hassle with trying to remove the correct toggle or dealing with both toggles in it. Here is an idea that I just had…..does anything like this exist in a lightweight version? ->

Basically…you have a metal heart or like y shaped ring of some sort. So, you could put the toggle from the left door in the hole in the right, and the toggle from the right door in the hole in the left. The grosgrain lineloc would just be cowhitched in the hole at the bottom. Thus, you would get overlapping doors (or close) and two separate holes so you are not dealing with linelocs together.

3. Corner guyline angles. Ok, so you are putting your corner guyline angles more parallel with the front of the shelter instead of a 45* angle from the corner. I can see how that would increase the bottom of the door tension since you are getting more sideways tension on it. However, whenever I try and do that then I lose my tension on the sides of the shelter. Like here ->

Its hard to tell tension of a cuben tent in a picture …at least at all points. I can tell your shelter is taut but not sure how flappy that side perimeter is. Are you just taking the tension out by the midpanel guyline?

4. Thanks for the link to the tac toggles…finally a place that ships small items for what it would actually cost …only $2 shipping! 50cents a toggle is pretty good too. Putting in an order now.

[J-L]

Do any Plex owners think a standard zippered door would be better? By the time you add in the extra hardware for the current door design, I think it would weigh about the same as a zipper

[DGoggins]

I'm sure the zippers would add quite a bit of weight…and you would still need a buckle at the bottom ala MLD pyramid doors.

[J-L]

Not likely. A #3 zipper weighs 0.33oz/yard. A slider weighs 0.08 oz. A 1/2-inch buckle would work fine. Those weigh 3g each.

You'd be looking at 1-1.5oz total to add zippers to both sides

[DGoggins]

@Bob Moulder

Now that is a cool system. Really nice thinking and yeah, that would be super nice to pull from the inside to bring the door latches to you for easy undoing (whether they are tac toggles, or the original zpacks system…or maybe the lineloc buckles though I'm not positive about that one yet).

Few questions for you ->

1. It looks like in your system you are using mitten hooks?

2. Did you drill a hole in the lineloc for the smallest diameter spectra line? I have fairly new lineloc 3s from zpacks and they don't have a hole in the front…

@John Harper

Is that weight a normal #3 zipper or a waterproof zipper? Or are you thinking if they switched to using zippers that they would just use a flap to cover the zipper with some Velcro or something?

Me personally I think I would rather deal with a fastener system than worry about zippers, which still take time to undo and then unbuckle…especially since we can refine the door latching system.

[JCH]

@JohnJonas

>>1. It looks like you are using a piece of polycryo…

Yes. It is Duck brand 2x thick sliding glass door window sealing film sold by Walmart. ~$11 for enough to make 2 footprints. I now think the 1x thick would be just fine, but the 2x is pretty much bullet proof and the weight savings would only be ~1.2 oz so I'm sticking with it :) I just bought some nylon washers at Lowes, superglued them to the polycro, then covered over them with thick clear packing tape. Been sing this setup for over a year and not a hint of failure.

Extra bonus…laying out the footprint first and staking it down lets me visualize the optimal stake placement. Then you just throw the duplex down, flop the corner guys over the already in-place stakes, insert the poles and guy the apexes. When I set the entire thing up this morning to take pictures, the pitch was complete in less than 2 min. What you don't see in the pictures are the Sharpie witness marks on the footprint guys that indicate the "optimum" length…I actually have these witness marks on all the guylines so I can return it to the optimum starting point if a site requires big adjustments. I'm pretty happy with my system so far.

>>2. Holy moly…that is a tight door pitch with no gap. It almost looks like its overlapping even at the bottom?

Ha! Not quite overlapping…the 4th picture shows the gap up close

>>You know…I can see that maybe with the one carabiner it could be a slight hassle with trying to remove the correct toggle or dealing with both toggles in it

Notice that the carabiner is "flipped over" so the narrow end it up. This gives the toggles a better purchase on the carabiner and also forces one to be below the other…not side by side. If I think I will want to go with a one-door-open-one-door-closed setup I simply slip the toggle on the door I will want open (downwind) in last so it is on the bottom. It's super easy to pop out the bottom toggle.

My concern with your carabiner idea is that it might allow the toggles to separate to much. The reason I can get such a small gap is because the door corners are held so closely together.

>>3. Corner guyline angles…whenever I try and do that then I lose my tension on the sides of the shelter.

Yes, in the photos the tension across the "head and foot" ends of the tent are a little loose, and yes the panel pullouts mitigate this a great deal, but the picture is exaggerating the issue. Also, as mentioned above, that pitch took less than 2 min. so another 30 sec or so adjusting would tighten up the end panel lower edges. Honestly, this has never been a problem for me, but I've never had the tent in wind above 15-17 mph. Higher than that I would be spending more time making certain everything is battened down. One thing I have learned is to make certain the pitch across the apex is very taut as this makes setting the corners and panel pull-outs seem to work much better.

In the end, as most Duplex owners have found, the tent is a tad futzy to set up nicely, but so totally worth the effort. The pitching system I have built has worked from SE US thunderstorms (aka toad stranglers) at sea level to Yosemite at 11,000 ft. I hope I don't encounter a situation where it doesn't work, but if I do it'll be another learning experience.

On another thread…Have you gotten to try that beautiful new Arc Haul in anger? :)

[JCH]

I don't know about weight, but the thing about the Duplex I admire most is the sheer genius of the zipperless overlapping doors. I LOVE The simplicity and with my toggle mod really don't have a problem with the way they work or what is required to deal with them from the inside. I would hesitate to add any complexity to this beautifully minimalist door solution.

[Bob Moulder]

1. It looks like in your system you are using mitten hooks?

Yes, some larger ones. I thought perhaps too large but there's a lot of tension on them so I think I won't change them out, at least for a while.

2. Did you drill a hole in the lineloc for the smallest diameter spectra line? I have fairly new lineloc 3s from zpacks and they don't have a hole in the front…

I melted a hole using a sharp auger from a multi-tool heated up with a small butane soldering torch.

[DGoggins]

@John Holmes

Ok, I bought some of the 2x thick polycryo from walmart. I'll use it for my duplex and my supermid cuben innernet. I've been using 1x thick polycryo and most of the time its fine…though sometimes I have been getting holes (patched with tyvek tape).

Quick question…..when you cut your polycryo, did you use the included double sided tape to make a "hem" where the cut was? I believe I read somewhere that if you cut polycryo then that edge is prone to ripping. I suppose I could put down a line of tyvek tape and then cut in the middle of that and I would assume I would be fine….

Also, you wrote ->

---

My concern with your carabiner idea is that it might allow the toggles to separate to much. The reason I can get such a small gap is because the door corners are held so closely together.

---

The idea with the Y shape was to overlap the toggles…so the right door toggle is going in the left hole. I.e., use a Y shape to get the toggles even closer together by …overlapping them slightly at the toggles.

@Bob Moulder

---

I melted a hole using a sharp auger from a multi-tool heated up with a small butane soldering torch

---

Well, I guess I'll be drilling a small hole then….I really do like your idea though.

[DGoggins]

Oh, and I forgot to mention..I'll be going to craters of the moon on Tuesday for a family trip and will be the packs maiden voyage.

[JCH]

>>Ok, I bought some of the 2x thick polycryo

The nice thing about the 2x is that when it gets wet it doesn't stick to itself as badly as the 1x. I always really hated dealing with the 1x under those conditions.

I just cut it to the size of the floor…no reinforcements of any kind except as discussed at the corners. I've never experienced polycro ripping. In fact, I tried once with the stuff from Gossamer Gear an could not rip it with my hands no matter what. Perhaps the trick is to make certain the cut is smooth…with no nicks?

>>The idea with the Y shape was to overlap the toggles

I totally missed that. Doh! Still, I think that would be a door configuration outside the design parameters. My use of the toggles mimics the original design…it *may* move the corners very slightly closer, but not so much as to affect the way the cut of the doors are designed to work. Also, how would you keep the Y from simply flipping over?

And I TOTALLY cannot wait to hear how the Arc Haul works. Pretty sure that is my next pack, but want to get in-the-field usage date prior to dropping the cash…my Crown VC 60 rocks pretty hard.

wow so many new and awesome comments and ideas!

This is turning into the "John" thread, so I'm just going to go with last names.

@Holmes:

I too have found that having the apex guyline pointing down as close to the shelter as possible is a key aspect of this shelter getting a nice pitch. I played with having the guyline out really far and everywhere in between and having it nice and close to the shelter just really seems to be a key aspect — that is, if you are going to have the doors closed (which I rarely do, even in rain.)

>>> Holmes: Also, I have noticed that the corner guys need to be loosened if I want the doors shut tight and tightened if I want (one or both) doors open.

I actually think this is something that should be un-wanted. The need to have the doors closed tight just seems wrong… its going to kill airflow, and airflow is key to combat condensation, and condensation is only an issue with this shelter when the doors are closed. The whole concept of the inset inner and storm doors are to allow the doors to remain open in almost all weather conditions. In those rare conditions when I have needed them closed, I still wanted max-airflow to deal with condensation.

>>> Holmes: Mil-Spec Monkey Tac-toggles

Yep, I suggested to Joe that he use tac-toggles back in the development days and a few times since then. I know he bought some earlier this year, but have no idea what ever became of that.

Tac-toggles on the door closures instead of those stupid square hardware would just make it so much nicer to open the door when its rolled up.

I think the tac-toggles should be attached to the shelter and not the door flaps, but I can see how going that route would make it a much easier DIY solution. For sure what you've done, does the job!

>>> I found I get a much better pitch with the support poles set at 115 cm

I played around with different lengths and agree that a better pitch can be achieved at that height, but at the same time, its really not necessary for a perfect pitch. I do see a fair amount of tension lines on the side panels because of how taut you have your setup and the use of upward poles. By not having the shelter so low, and not setting it up so tight, you can reduce those stresses on the fabric (and more so in heavy wind) by keeping things looser.

I see you are using dedicated poles and pole pockets for the side panel pull outs. I almost went with them too, and I did when I had my SolPlex. In the end I just ditched them and pick up a stick off the ground. Obviously a higher-risk technique… if a stick comes loose and it goes through the fabric, that would, well, suck.

@Bob:

wow, love that tighten/loosen system you came up with! Watched the video, very cool.

Those massive mitten hooks do not really solve the issue of getting the doors open easy when wearing gloves though (which is why I started down this whole issue of door modifications)

I see what your doing (in the last photo) with the downward ll3+webbing. I'll give that a try later tonight. Are you finding it easier to setup using this method?

@Jonas:

I see what your idea is with the triple toggle and triple ring system. Seen a triple-ring system but it was far from the ul hiking community. Seems like it could be an easy DIY setup, eh. Just wondering if it would be necessary. How about just going with one ring and having guylines attached to it?

@Harper:

I think a zipper on the Duplex would just be a bad idea. These are storm doors meant to only be closed in the worst-weather possible. It would also require a complete redesign on the part of zpacks. I would much rather have doors with a little fuss and be designed to only be closed in really bad weather, then deal with all the issues that comes with zippers on shelters.

>>> Holmes: I've never had the tent in wind above 15-17 mph.

I got some 55-58 mph wind gusts on my Duplex a month or so ago. Brutal, but no problems.

>>> Holmes: One thing I have learned is to make certain the pitch across the apex is very taut as this makes setting the corners and panel pull-outs seem to work much better.

Yeah, for sure. I learned that too. Took a while, giggle.

>>> Holmes: Have you gotten to try that beautiful new Arc Haul

Yep, I have the new Arc Haul…but in a ZIP version :)

Read my thought at:

https://www.facebook.com/HikeLighter/photos/a.188450694612095.6907.180971708693327/283824805074683/.

[JCH]

@Abela

Totally agree on the use of the doors. I've closed all 4 doors maybe twice when the winds were swirling. Even then, I got very little condensation as there was a steady wind all night…just from different directions. Leaving most/all the doors open is what makes this tent rock.

I also replaced the square toggles that hold the doors open with the Tac toggles. Works the shiznit! Hope Joe is reading these threads :)

@Holmes

Yeah, I think most folks are just not 'getting' these storm doors. Yeah, there is a privacy side of things, but the inset inner and overflap of the storm doors really do make it almost never necessary to close doors, huh. It rocks being able to having it raining and have the doors open.

I would love to see a photo of the doors rolled up and the use of a tac-toggle holding them closed! Would you be up for posting a photo of that? And if so, can I use it to share on my FB page? Trying to explain it has been proving difficult. A photo to share with other folks would be super sweet.

Right now I suspect Joe and the gang are so focused on the adzpctko that reading BPL is pretty low on their priority list. I've not bothered them at all for a few weeks, knowing the chaos they (and all the other companies) go through for the 5-8 weeks before kickoffs. But for sure, I'll be making sure they read all of this after pct kickoff!! I highly doubt they will make drastic changes, but small changes like tac-toggles, that is perhaps doable. Joe also mentioned to me they are working on a new closure system, using some hardware they are having developed. What that new hardware is and when/if it will be revealed, I have no idea.

I think at this point, I am really liking the double-stake method, with one guyline and one snap-buckle per guyline/stake. It just provides me the most flexibility at no real weight gain (as I already have a couple of spare stakes). I just need to order up some more of them from gossamergear… I just hate paying their shipping fees for something so small, sigh.

[JCH]

@Abela

Actually…the closeup in my OP showing the tac toggle *is* the one that holds the door open. Doors rolled up and held open look exactly like they do with the square toggle. I replaced all 4 square toggles with the tac toggles and added one to each door corner.

Did you see if Mil Spec Monkey has the hardware you need? Amazingly reasonable shipping charges from them

re: adzpctko. Yeah, that's one of the main reasons I have not gone ahead and ordered the Arc Haul…I know they won't touch the order for awhile :( I'll hang loose and gather my thoughts. Having never seen the Arc Haul, I'm hesitant to order one with modifications, but here is what I'm thinking would make that rock:

Dual straps over the top…more secure lashing when you have to carry gear externally.
Replace the side compression cord with 2 straps ala John Jonas.
Add the ability to cinch the roll top down to the sides of the pack like on the Arc Zip. I'd like the flexibility to close the top either way.

Damn…topic creep. Sorry.

[J-L]

That weight was for a non-waterproof #3 zip. The materials section on ZPacks has all the weights. Since the zipper would only be over the vestibule, I don't think waterproof would be needed nor a zipper flap needed.

Personally, I think a zipper would be a simpler and more elegant solution. But, I do see the appeal of having no zipper.

totally off-topic:

>>> Dual straps over the top…more secure lashing when you have to carry gear externally.
Replace the side compression cord with 2 straps ala John Jonas.
Add the ability to cinch the roll top down to the sides of the pack like on the Arc Zip. I'd like the flexibility to close the top either way.

Agreed on the dual straps over the top – makes it soooo much nicer to keep a zlite pad secure

Agreed with the webbing side compression straps. I hate the change zpacks made away from webbing compression straps to that stupid shock cord. I have ordered all of my packs, since they made the change, to the original webbing compression straps.

Agreed on the roll top straps like we came up with on the ZIP. It, oddly enough, really does make it nice. It was one of the better ideas that evolved in the three years spent working on the ZIP.

The one thing you didn't mention that I would recommend is having them change out the cordage for webbing on the bottom compression straps. Yet another change they made that I do not like.

[JCH]

>>I would recommend having them change out the cordage for webbing on the bottom compression straps

Awsome! I didn't even notice that design "feature". It's been added to my list. Thanks for the feedback, I'm now feeling rather more confident about my choices.

re: roll top straps cinching down the side: This is one of my favorite features of my Crown VC 60.

[DGoggins]

OK, so …just throwing a different opinion about the bottom haul straps…webbing vs cord.

I talked about it a bit here with the Frankenstein pack ->

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=95108

The webbing zpacks put on the pack was not long enough…and there is no way to change it once on it. With cord….you can easily shorten, lengthen, or even completely remove it. Its trivial. I usually put a rolled up ridgerest on the bottom of the pack, and I think cord is easier to work with too with that kind of rolled up item. Webbing would get twisted while pushing the pad through.

As for the top of the pack…so with the normal blast/haul you Velcro the opening together, roll it up, then take the two ends, make it a circle and clip together. With the arc zip…you Velcro then just fold flat and buckle on each side? That…does seem easier. Though….I think with just one additional buckle and some cordage it could be added to any arc blast if I'm thinking about it right. No…you would need to be able to tension it so would need webbing….hmm, ….

Oh yeah, I bought this golite jam on the swap ->

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=79804

It was converted to having Velcro (ala arc blast) and then uses the same lineloc buckles that I just added to the duplex to attach it. Maybe I can do the same with the arc haul.

[DGoggins]

---

From Abela:
I see what your idea is with the triple toggle and triple ring system. Seen a triple-ring system but it was far from the ul hiking community. Seems like it could be an easy DIY setup, eh. Just wondering if it would be necessary. How about just going with one ring and having guylines attached to it?

---

Well, I wouldn't be able to DIY a triple ring system….its not cordage that would be connecting the 3 rings. It would need to be stiff. The idea with the Y closure is to have the toggles overlap each other, so the actual doors are even closer together than if you use the carabiner (or ring if it was a small enough diameter) where they meet in the same spot. Plus, could be easier to only deal with one toggle per one ring.

And, ->

---

Also, how would you keep the Y from simply flipping over?

---

Well, the toggles would both be coming from underneath and then up through each ring, so it shouldn't flip over. Yes, if you only have one, it would flip and lean towards that door (just like any closure system if you just have one door), but when you attach the other door, you just flip it over and pull it to the other toggle.

Don't get me wrong, I don't know if its a good idea or not, or if anything lightweight could even be found. It would also probably make it necessary to use 2 hands to close the second door where you probably only have to use one hand with going through the carabiner with the second toggle.

Edit: I don't know…thinking about it again if you have the toggle pulling on the door even farther away horizontally b/c of the y-shape, it could help the bottom door tension. The issue is….I don't even know what to look for to see if it exists….like, the name of something like this.

[Bob Moulder]

@Bob:

wow, love that tighten/loosen system you came up with! Watched the video, very cool.

Those massive mitten hooks do not really solve the issue of getting the doors open easy when wearing gloves though (which is why I started down this whole issue of door modifications)

I see what your doing (in the last photo) with the downward ll3+webbing. I'll give that a try later tonight. Are you finding it easier to setup using this method?

John A,

• Mitten hooks: I'm going to cut the circular ends off the mitten hooks and attach them to the tent's original loops using several wraps of polyester thread, leaving some little 'ears' on the small-radius end so they can't slide out. What you see in the photos and video are my very first shot at this with no refinements. I'm going to address this today and post photos. Actually, the mitten hooks are very easy to remove in the field… what makes things difficult to remove IMO is when they are under tension, which isn't a problem with this system.

• Apex web+ll3: Yes, having that apex guyline (ridgeline) adjustable is way better! I'm doing some more tweaks today on that as well.

• Steel rings: (You didn't ask this, but somebody PM'ed about it…) I'm fairly certain they aren't necessary at all. The cord-on-cord friction wasn't nearly as significant as I thought, and I don't think wear will be a problem, so I'll try removing the rings and see how it works.

Part of the usual 'distillation' process. :^)

[Author]

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