Ultralight Waterproof Breathable Jackets: 2012 State of the Market Report

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Mar 20, 2012 at 4:12 pm #1287540

Addie Bedford
BPL Member

@addiebedford
Locale: Montana

Companion forum thread to:

Ultralight Waterproof Breathable Jackets: 2012 State of the Market Report

Mar 24, 2012 at 6:00 pm #1858842

Eugene Smith
BPL Member

@eugeneius
Locale: Nuevo Mexico

The Rab Demand pullover is a solid shell, 3-layer eVent, stripped down to the essentials and sits right around 9-10oz. Was this out of the scope of this article for weight purposes? I would say it is a good replacement to the Ozo.

I've only had a chance to wear mine half a dozen times since I picked it up. I was pleased with how it functioned on a few snow runs this winter. Durability is very good, snagged several thorny acacia trees on a long run and thought for sure I would tear into the jacket, but it came our unscathed to my surprise.

Mar 24, 2012 at 6:17 pm #1858849

Nigel Healy
Member

@nigelhealy
Locale: San Francisco bay area

Review from a TGOC 2011 podcaster extraordinaire Bob Cartwright
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iiiICwZDdSA#t=565s

Translation for USA of the UK phrase "everything on the tin" = "it does what it claims" from an old UK TV commercial
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Does_exactly_what_it_says_on_the_tin

OMM Cypher Smock

http://www.theomm.com/products?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=12&category_id=12

Mar 24, 2012 at 7:50 pm #1858891

jscott
BPL Member

@book
Locale: Northern California

+1 on the Rab Demand. Very happy with it after 1 1/2 seasons. My go-to shell, for sure.

I also own TNF Triumph anorak, which is great for weight and imo reasonably waterproof, but hardly breathes at all. I wouldn't want to climb a pass in tnf anorak.
But I could see using it in summer on the jmt, for example, if you understand it's limits.

Mar 24, 2012 at 8:36 pm #1858916

Dan @ Durston Gear
BPL Member

@dandydan
Locale: Canadian Rockies

Haglofs Ozo, all sizes, $179 USD….kind of a weird check out though.

http://www.haglofsjackets.org/haglofs-men39s-ozo-pullover_p426.html

Nevermind…it's a scam probably. The site was just registered 10 days ago so I highly doubt it's legit.

Mar 24, 2012 at 8:55 pm #1858927

Jim Sweeney
BPL Member

@swimjay
Locale: Northern California

Yes, Dan, I ordered a jacket there a few days ago, but never heard from them. Seems like a lot of work to go to if they're just fishing for email addresses/ credit cards. Have tried emailing them, but one of their addresses came up empty. So far nothing on my credit card.

Mar 25, 2012 at 1:28 am #1859031

Martin RJ Carpenter
Member

@martincarpenter

The quito might be Paramo's lightest jacket but its very compromised to achieve that – no real flap behind the non waterproof main zip, no double layer in shoulders vs pack pressure etc. They seemingly aimed at it at cyclists and the like where it'd probably do fine, but still can't help thinking it was a slight mistake in some ways.

Mar 25, 2012 at 1:44 am #1859034

Rachel Frendrup
Member

@naturligvis

They might may have replaced with with the LIM series, also paclite.I have both the LIM jacket and the pants and love them.

http://www.haglofs.com/en-us/products/clothing/layers/shell-layer/men/lim_jacket_en-us.aspx

http://www.haglofs.com/en-us/products/clothing/layers/shell-layer/men/lim_pant_en-us.aspx

I have quite a lot of Haglöfs gear and have never been disappointed in anything, usually very impressed.

Mar 25, 2012 at 2:07 am #1859040

Nigel Healy
Member

@nigelhealy
Locale: San Francisco bay area

Yep agreed Quito is very compromised, yep has many mistakes. However, I've yet to find better in some contexts. It is more of a walking than a cycling cut due to the excessively shortness at the rear, it is about 6" too short for cycling. However, if you're wearing waterproof pants then the short cut is not really that much of a problem.

Paramo's waterproofness is not a function of zips, you'd be allowing water in via zips and aiming to be warm for baselayer to evaporate and the Quito liner to let that pass through, it might condense on the inside face of the outer layer but the inner layer won't let it pass back in, and then let body heat keep the moisture going in a generally outward direction.

I biked today for an hour doing grocery shopping in the Quito in constant rain, I was dry.

Compromised, yes, example of dumb designers, yes, ignoring customer feedback, yes, but it still can defeat the wet stuff if you know how the fabric works, and do it better than many alternatives. The key positive points are the fabric, the hood, sleeves and the pitzips.

Mar 25, 2012 at 2:26 am #1859044

Martin RJ Carpenter
Member

@martincarpenter

Doubt it – they've always had the two together and a big weight difference. I think it must be active shell making premium paclite a harder sell.

Still, the LIM jacket would have been a much easier target (basically total overlap with their Endo). There are notes about a (still?) planned Endo pullover online and maybe they didn't think they could sustain two smocks. Still its a lot heavier than the Oz(o) so not a replacement.

Mar 26, 2012 at 9:27 pm #1859797

Eric Blumensaadt
BPL Member

@danepacker
Locale: Mojave Desert

These reviewed parkas are UL and a few MAY be durable enough for my uses.

Right now I have two LIGHT parkas that have held up well in bushwhacking and working under pack harnesses. Namely:
1. Cabela's Rainy River PacLite GTX (size XL, Tall, 1 lb.)
2. REI Kimtah eVent (size XL)1 lb. also)

Both are 'lite enuf' for now but as technology marches on I may be tempted by a UL parka that seems very durable. Will the new "Never Wet" DWR technology teamed with a tougher WPB laminate be The Next Big Thing in backpacking parkas??

Mar 26, 2012 at 10:49 pm #1859830

Stephan Doyle
Member

@stephancal

I, too, have the Rab Demand. Great hood, simple cuffs (elastic), and a clean aesthetic. I use it from desert backpacking to alpine climbing and mountaineering. I like to fiddle and tweak my kit, but this piece is here to stay and converted me to Rab in general.

Mar 27, 2012 at 4:36 am #1859868

Tim Lawes
BPL Member

@tim-lawes

I contacted Haglofs about the OZO Pullover to ask if it is being replaced with a similar shell. They advised that the closest is the Endo and they will release an Endo pullover soon but it is significantly heavier. This is the reply that I got.

We will not produce more OZO Pullover and I do not why , unfortunately.
Endo II Pullover weighs more than OZO pullover, and it is explained to the membrane of Endo is heavier, but it breathes much better.
The difference is 120 grams between OZO and Endo.

Endo II Pullover ( size L ) : 300g
OZO Pullover ( size L ) : 180 g

Mar 27, 2012 at 9:09 am #1859940

David Colbert
BPL Member

@adkphoto
Locale: Central, New York

Great article and feedback. I've been looking for a new jacket for quite a while, so the timing was perfect for me as well.

My question is, does anyone have any feedback on how long to expect the waterproofing to last before wetting out on any of these lightweight options? In particular, I've been considering the OR Helium II. (I was disappointed to read that the hood wasn't particularly good on this model.)

Also, does anyone have suggestions for pants to complement these jackets?

Thanks!

David

Mar 28, 2012 at 3:40 am #1860356

David Hankins
BPL Member

@hankinsohl
Locale: Pacific Northwest

Just a warning. There appear to be a lot of scam websites selling Haglof merchandise. I naively attempted to purchase an Ozo pullover from one of them for $179.00. Their secure payment webpage informed me that my purchase was refused due to "my bank's policy." So I called my bank only to find that the scam company had attempted to charge my credit card over one thousand dollars! Wow!

Since I had provided both my credit card number and 3-digit security code via the purchase page, I decided that I'd better cancel my card. Ugh, what a pain.

Anyhow, this is the site that fooled me:

http://www.haglofsjackets.org

This site was created on 2/17/2012. Another website also created on this date:

http://www.haglofsjackets.co.uk

And finally there's this one:

http://www.haglofsjacketssale.com

This was created on 11/8/2011 but is registered to somone in China.

So if the price is too good to believe and if they've got every single piece of gear in stock, all sizes, even gear that's been discontinued, it's best to run a whois check on the domain. I foolishly did not.

Mar 28, 2012 at 5:57 am #1860370

Arapiles .
BPL Member

@arapiles
Locale: Melbourne

I have a 5 year old Rab Super Dru, which generally I love. Given the weather in Australia the last two years I've actually got to wear it in the rain. I noticed though on a recent bike ride in heavy rain that I did get quite wet, particularly on the arms. I dismissed it as condensation or water getting down the neck but then saw a post on another site talking about the same thing. I haven't been particularly assiduous in giving it washes, so I wonder if it had become dirty/contaminated and therefore ineffective, in the same way that early Gore-Tex did. Of course the whole point of eVent is that the membrane is supposed to be oleophobic so that it doesn't fail when contaminated, but that's not what I experienced. I have now given it a good wash and will see how it performs in the next heavy rain.

I recently bought a Montane Air jacket – at $135 it was hard to say no – and walked home in the rain in it the other day. I had no problems with condensation or leakage but will keep an eye on it.

It's worth saying that I had a succession of Gore-Tex jackets over the last 20 years that simply failed, PU coating or not. One simply stopped being waterproof, without any explanation, and the other delaminated and was replaced.

If it's cold and raining I prefer to ride in my Paramo jacket but if the temperature is above 15C it's just too warm.

Mar 28, 2012 at 10:16 am #1860470

Nigel Healy
Member

@nigelhealy
Locale: San Francisco bay area

"If it's cold and raining I prefer to ride in my Paramo jacket but if the temperature is above 15C it's just too warm."

I also migrated away from shells as primary form of waterproofness, I primarily use windproofs which are much cheaper, even two layers can be better than a shell, and Paramo. Although:

"If it's cold and raining I prefer to ride in my Paramo jacket but if the temperature is above 15C it's just too warm."

For me its about 11C and I'm bordering on too-warm if active, at 15C I'm having to seriously slow myself down to not crank up water consumption. At about 4C its perfect. Having given up on Goretex, and hearing rave review of eVent's breathability, I did own for a year a Rab Drillium thinking it would bring waterproofness into higher temps than the Paramo, I believed the hype but it didn't have pitzips and it was too warm easily also so sold it and got a waterproof with pitzips (happens to be a Marmot Aegis which has a terrible hood by the way). All my waterproofs have pitzips, Paramo having too-warm issues and all shells simply can't breathe enough unless you move slow. Backpacking on rough ground tends to make you slow as does descending steeply but climbing or good surface flat, the shell just gets wet inside. Pitzips help enormously as pointing downwards and you can close the side facing crosswinds. The ultalight shells don't have pitzips, they add probably 100g, but the shell is mostly useless many times without.

Mar 28, 2012 at 2:39 pm #1860587

jacob sullivan
Member

@jakenz
Locale: The Windy City (NZ)

(long time listener, first time caller)

So just to add to what was said above I've also been using a RAB super dru eVent jacket (~400gms from memory) for 3 years or so here in NZ. The cut in the body, shoulders, elbows and lower arms is/was superb and I guess reflects RAB's climbing lineage – certainly much better than a Macpac Traverse eVent jacket I picked up on sale recently. The breathability of both is of course terrific compared to various Goretex jackets I've had over the years.

Alas the Super Dru's eVent layer has been delaminating steadily since it was under a year old, admittedly after very regular use (3+ hours every week) and only very occasional washing. The delamination started with the creases on the inside of your arms/elbows, which I noticed because water would "get through" there – not condensation either, we're talking moderate exertion, low humidity cold conditions here. Then other little bubbles appeared on the chest and then large sections around the hood and neck and shoulders where water would also get through and my shoulders would get quite wet.

After observing my jacket change over the years my take on the possible eVent delamination causes is:(i) areas of repetitive creasing (arm creases); (ii)areas where sweat/body oils build up (neck/hood); (iii) areas of higher than average water pressure (shoulders).

To be fair to Rab & eVent given my slackness on the washing front it may be that all three are body oil buildup related, but I'd have my doubts that would fully explain either the shoulders or the elbows/arms. That said, I'm not quite ready to go backwards on the breathability front so am giving Event another go, this time being a bit more diligent on the washing. Will see how we go!

Apr 9, 2012 at 6:18 pm #1865521

MFR
Spectator

@bigriverangler
Locale: West

Thanks Dave on an excellent write-up.

I picked up a Rab Pulse as a result of this article. It came at the perfect time as I am in need of a new rain jacket.

Bear in mind that the Pulse came out size-wise under its listed specs. Technically, the measurements for a Large are exactly my measurements. But when I got it to try on, I could barely fit my shoulders in the jacket at all, and it was tight through the waist. So, I sent it back to Campsaver, and they sent me an XL. The XL is just a hair tighter in the shoulders than I would rather it be, but nothing to be concerned about. Just know that Rab's shoulders are very much on the narrow side.

For many on here, that's no problem. But for broad-shouldered guys like me, keep it in mind when ordering.

(Also, the XL is 7.72 oz (219 g) on my scale. Very happy hiker.)

Apr 9, 2012 at 8:22 pm #1865570

Kathleen B
Member

@rosierabbit
Locale: Pacific Northwest

I, too, bought a RAB Pulse based on this article. I returned it, because the cut was too tight in the hips. I hope RAB makes it in a woman's style soon, because the fabric did seem wonderful. As an aside, Campsaver is great to deal with.

Apr 9, 2012 at 9:24 pm #1865590

MFR
Spectator

@bigriverangler
Locale: West

+1 on Campsaver. This was my first time with them–very impressed.

May 23, 2012 at 11:49 pm #1880642

Cameron Lindsay
BPL Member

@hikingoz
Locale: Huon

I was suprised with the rating of the TNF Anorak of C for durability. These jackets are only held together by tiny welded seams which are not durable. I've had one split apart across the back between the shoulders whilst taking it off. I would only hope those rated equal or worse in this review do not hold up as poorly.

May 5, 2014 at 9:24 am #2099370

Ian Clark
BPL Member

@chindits
Locale: Cntrl ROMO

No offense intended, but I purchased the Rab rain jacket after this review. I found that the fabric did little to keep me from getting wet. Even standing around in camp in a gently falling snow, I would find water would soak through the shoulders and get my down jacket wet. This is a jacket that was very lightly used in the Colorado Rockies, so typically not a lot of use due to not a lot of rain. Almost never used with a pack. So this was not a "worn out" jacket. No chance of internal moisture with just standing around in camp. The down jacket should of mimimized the internal and external temp differential, so I discount condensation specifically to the shoulders. I interpret that snow fell hitting my shouders. The snow would melt and the water would soak through to get my down jacket wet.

In my uninformed opinion, I feel it is more important to have a rainjacket keep the external moisture out during times like camp or hunkering down waiting out a storm then it is to stay dry while on the move. For on the move, you can self generate heat to compensate for the internal moisture build up of condensation and sweat. When you are in camp or hunkered down or on the slow stalk, you are not generating the heat so it is more important to keep your insulating layers dry. So I am going back to a less breathable but more waterproof raingear, weight be d**mn.

May 5, 2014 at 9:48 am #2099382

Nigel Healy
Member

@nigelhealy
Locale: San Francisco bay area

"The down jacket should of mimimized the internal and external temp differential, so I discount condensation specifically to the shoulders."

Huh? Insulation MAXIMISES differential inside vs outside, it is trapping heat so is making the outer side colder, by definition. A non-insulating item doesn't trap heat, lets the heat pass through so making the outside nearer to inside temperature.

So down should force condensation if under a shell if you done enough to get to the condensation point.

Not disagreeing your wider comment the jacket failed, regardless of why, it still failed.

Agree on keeping insulating layers dry, but what most people do is use down for camp wear to not wear when it is raining, you'd swap to down once out of rain. If you put a shell over, you are trapping your own moisture and of course if the shell is leaking letting the rain in too.

I can't wear down when moving above freezing, I get too hot, so my down is for stationary or moving in very cold.

May 5, 2014 at 10:38 am #2099406

David Chenault
BPL Member

@davec
Locale: Queen City, MT

That's a vexing problem Ian. It's certainly possible you got a bad jacket, or that the Pulse is just not suited to you.

I think it's also possible that the WPB outer layer was working as a moisture trap. PU is not especially breathable, especially when you use insulation under it, which lessens the ability of body heat to push moisture out.

Probably not relevant in this case, but just because a jacket hasn't been worn much does not mean the DWR is still virgin. Dirt contamination can certainly take place while stuffed in the bottom of your pack.

As a general update, the Ozo is still going strong, after having been used for every serious trip in the past 3+ years. I've been using a non-breathable OR jacket I picked up last year for less weight sensitive trips, to prolong the Ozo's life. Good WPB jackets are expensive after all.
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