Lightweight Internal Frame Packs: a State of the Market Report – Part 1C: Main Bag & Comfort

Hi John

> I'm still not convinced that external frame packs aren't superior in concept
Ahem. The packs I make do have an external frame … :-)

> I'm still waiting for the ultimate article on pot circumference
It's coming!
Yes, a lot of the metrology has been done (you can thank Tony Beasley for that), and the results are quite interesting. Some anticipated, some not. Stay tuned. No pre-releases though.

Cheers

> I'm still waiting for the ultimate article on pot circumference
It's coming!
Yes, a lot of the metrology has been done (you can thank Tony Beasley for that), and the results are quite interesting. Some anticipated, some not. Stay tuned. No pre-releases though.

Its coming, as of this week I am taking a days leave per week to get the article finished.

A lot of people on this forum do not realize how much time and effort can go into some of these articles, my last two articles made me 20c/hour and that does not take into account the costs involved, the pot article is going to be similar. I am sure many other authors of BPL article have similar experiences, it is my hobby.

To the people doing the criticizing, if do not like they way Roger has presented his pack review you are welcome to do one yourselves.

Tony

Travis I still must disagree.

If you look closely at your definition you see that it begins "any theory." As I tried to make clear in my last post I was not basing my comments on "theory" so my statement could not be absolutist as it is not based on "any theory" but rather upon my direct observation.
(Roger's claim as worded is strictly theoretical).

You are confusing "tone" with with the "burden of proof." You are welcome to tell me to tone down but it is no defense of the original question as you would have it.

One of my criticism of the initial language of the piece was that Roger made an unsupported claim. Still after all this, this matter has not been addressed. Rather I am called an "absolutist" for discussing actual experience that contrasts and refutes Roger's theoretical claim. See where I am going with this? You are committing a logical fallacy. Just becuase you don't like my tone that doesn't make my question any less valid.

See why I bring up radical transparency? I am trying to get Roger to account for his claim. Insofar he has not responded to this simple request for his evidence behind his contention, that, "bladders will burst when packed inside a pack."

OK so I myself made a mistake for echoing the tone that was used in the original article. I'm sorry if I offended you.

Now may we actually get the evidence behind Roger's claim that a bladder with burst when it is packed inside of a rucksack? All this mess goes away if one simple request is fulfilled.

Roger made a claim, we want proof, simple. I think the tone you hate so much Travis grows and grows as the orginal question gets brushed under the rug and everyone circles their wagons. This entire diologue wouldn't have ever gone this far if Roger had done one of two things.

1) Admited me might have made a mistake and that he has no proof of his claim. There are enough members here who DO use them. Either way, the members here would not hold it against him for admitting he made a mistake. Hey none of us are perfect, we understand.

2) He provided evidence of his claim that it really is stupid to put a bladder in your pack. I.e. he tells us how on one or several trips though the brush he and his hiking partner both burst their hydration bladders' while they rode shotgun inside the pack.

Thats it. That's all I've been asking for this entire time. 1) or 2) that it. Writer's responsibility, Accountability. Whatever you want to call it. That what the Internet is all about. If you say in publicly in the square own up to your claims. Travis, I am sorry if you feel I am the one that is out of line. Perhaps we have different concepts of personal accountability, I don't know. But if you said it, you own it, you account for it. Call me out of line all you like, but that doesn't free the original writer from the burden of proof.

Hi Charles

I think we might have to agree to disagree.

For the record, I did not say that a bladder WILL burst when packed inside a rucksack. I said that a bladder inside MY pack stuffed full of MY gear might burst:

'When I fill my pack with gear the pack is generally fairly tightly done up, to keep all the gear secure and stop the pack from flopping around. The idea of having a flexible bladder of water stuffed down inside the back of the pack being crushed by the rest of my gear seems to me to be the height of stupidity: there is every chance of it bursting under some minor extra impact.'

Yes, I do know of one case where that happened. That was some time ago and I do not remember the details. I have also had other containers inside my pack damaged by hard objects (pitons, I think). But if a bladder works for you, go for it.

Cheers

"They're universally so polite and considerate that I want to strangle them."

Us Australians are like that too.

But it has to be said that the Canadians aren't really members of the Commonwealth – they don't play cricket.

It`s too cold to wack a weird ball with a funny looking paddle…

And personally I hate bladders. I have had them pop in may pack. weight Isn`t a factor in that its whats pushing against it. Opinionated Views are very informative I find. Working in the industry, all they do is sell staff on what features they add. Most of the sales reps spend the whole time talking about features but pack fitting maybe 10 min. I had a Mountain Hardwear PK wear we were never told how to fit a pack. Pretty awesome for new staff, `heres what the pack has` fitting it doesn`t mean much…

hi roger

lol, yes 15kg of body water loss doesn't sound healthy
I corrected typo

>> prevent excessive dehydration (>2% BW loss from water deficit)
>By way of reference, for everyone else to consider: I weigh ~64 kg. 2% of that is 1.28 kg or 1.28 L of water. There is absolutely NO WAY that I can drink that much water in the space of 2.5 hours of walking. Can you? Should you? (The answer to the last is No: you can kill yourself that way.)

Not true. Hike in high desert? That's exactly how much water was right for me when at ~13000 ft in the Eastern Sierra. Similar body weight. It was 85F (30C) outside.

As mentioned earlier : individuals are different. Environments are different. Maybe someone drank too much vodka the previous night? Maybe something else…

Drink enough to stay hydrated.

I offer a specific experience of exactly how a hydration bladder can fail in a pack. My husband wanted a neatsy cool Camelbak bladder for his pack for our Wonderland Trail hike. So I got him one and he installed it in his Atmos 65 pack. And he packed it all pretty tightly, all the way up to the top. (Yes he brings more clothes and gear than I do but does not learn well from me lecturing…) For a few days all was well. Then the leaking began. What happened? The Camelbak (I won't speak for other brands but some others are similar designs) has a wide round fill-opening at the top, with a rigid collar that makes filling and cleaning easier. When he packed the pack tightly to the top with the bladder only partially full (because, say, he was rummaging in the pack for something and did not have occasion at that point to top off the partially-drained bladder), the collar, with stuff pressed against it from above, acted as a "cookie cutter" against the opposite soft plastic surface, and eventually it cut through. No effect until after the next time the bladder was refilled and the pack repacked to the top. Then he got this mysterious seeping of water onto the contents of his pack.

He threw the neatsy cool Camelbak into a trash can at the next road intersection, and accepted one of my two 1L Aquafina bottles for the rest of the hike.

If a person chooses to use a hydration bladder inside their pack there shouldn't really be ANY major concern for it excessively leaking or bursting onto the contents inside the pack assuming that person has used safe practice and placed all moisture sensitive items inside a waterproof/resistant barrier such as a cuben sac, pack liner, trashbag, drysac, etc. If in the event the bladder does happen to malfunction by user error, product defect, or what have you, the only thing getting doused in water is the main pack body and bottom and perhaps a few less vital items. It's easy to blame a hydration pack for wet gear and write it off as a silly method, however, if gear shouldn't be getting wet in the first place then it should be protected accordingly. Bottles are excellent and work for some, others don't like the fiddle factor on the trail using a bottle and prefer the simplicity of use while hiking found in a bladder. Both methods have a certain set of precautionary measures, and simple techniques that when followed should put no gear at risk. In the end, sufficient practice and application of both hydration methods should find the person proficient at acquiring water, storing, and hydrating along the way. I prefer bottles and would likely find using a hydration bladder fussy and cumbersome, mostly due to my lack of experience with it and nothing else.

>> prevent excessive dehydration (>2% BW loss from water deficit)
> By way of reference, for everyone else to consider: I weigh ~64 kg. 2% of that is 1.28 kg or 1.28 L of water.
> There is absolutely NO WAY that I can drink that much water in the space of 2.5 hours of walking.
> Can you? Should you? (The answer to the last is No: you can kill yourself that way.)

Roger,

Different folks have different needs. Perhaps what you say is true for you.

In my case, however, when doing a strenuous workout at the gym or when hiking vigorously in warm weather, I can easily drink 1L/hr of electrolyte drink (which includes about 6% carbohydrates).

A more common rate for summer hikes would be 1L per 2 hrs — still a rate that you say would kill me. Since I am here and posting this, I guess it did not kill me :)

— MV

If you own an MSR Dromedary bag, here's a neat trick:

Fill it mostly full, put on the lid. Take it into the yard, put it on the ground, and leap upwards, landing on the bladder with both feet and your full weight. The lid will fly off, water will go everywhere, and the Dromedary will be unharmed.

I'd never use a mere Camelbak type bladder on a trip where loosing my water would be problematic.

David,
While that sounds like a neat trick, I don't think I'm going to try that! :)

I used the Dromlite 4L during a desert trip. I was glad to have the capacity and durabliliy.