Why do we need to use Lineloc's?

[Murali C]

It seems like one can leave a taut line hitch knot permanently on the end that goes around the stakes. These knots can then provide the same adjustability as lineloc’s. A good video of a variation of the taut line hitch can be seen here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnwfT2tQ1zU

My question is, are there any disadvantages to using this style of knot? Cold, wind, snow etc?

I cannot see any disadvantages.

Also, you constantly hear of cordage slip with lineloc’s – though it has not happened to me with the DCF tents. Though it has happened to others. Also, I have heard of one incident where the lineloc has broken.

I guess the advantage of the knots are that you can use the lightest 1.2 mm cord’s without having to worry about lineloc slippage – or correct combinations of lineloc’s and cord size.

With DCF tents, I have never had to adjust the lineloc’s once pitched for the night – which is perhaps one advantage of the lineloc3’s as they can be adjusted from inside the tarp etc as they are easily accessible. But, if you never had or have to do that, then that argument also goes away.

So, is there any reason to use lineloc’s at all? Why don’t manufacturers just provide the taut line hitch attached to the tent/tarp which provides the same adjustability as lineloc’s?

 

 

[Philip Tschersich]

Linelocs are idiot-proof (well, idiot-resistant). Knots are kryptonite to idiots. The first time someone pulls the stake loop into their tautline hitch or strangulates their stake against the knot and can’t figure out how to release it, lots of nasty reviews will ensue. Or they accidentally untie it in the dark and have no idea how to reestablish the knot (since it came tied from the factory months ago and they never practiced how to tie it) and now they put like a dozen granny knots in the system…

…and recriminations on not using linelocs will follow.

If you don’t like linelocs, take a set of dykes and snip them off. I personally don’t mind them despite being handy with knots.

[James Marco]

In most 3season weather, knots are fine. When you get bad weather, Ice has a way of locking knots. You can usually rip through ice and snow easily with line locks. That said, I never use them. I simply tie a surgeons loop in one end to cover 90% of my staking needs. I rarely use any type of tensioner, but, I do use heavy elastic (doubled hair ties) that pretty much eliminates the need for retensioning.

The black arrow is the tent.

The green loop is the tent loop

The blue is a hair tie folded over the tent loop

The red is the guyline lop-to-looped around the ends of the hair tie.

Of course, the anchor end is a simple loop to a stake.

[Ray J]

Everyone uses and likes different devices and knots.  I use lineloc’s.  But I also don’t attach them to the stakes.  On my hammock tarp, they are at the tie-downs.  The line at the stake is just a loop around the stake.  This allows me to remain under the tarp and tug on the line at the lineloc in bad weather.  Even with cold and wet fingers and lines, they work.

[Jerry Adams]

I’ve used devices like line-locs – I’ve gone back to taut line hitch, just easier to do.

I’ve had them lock up like James.  Eventually I get it unlocked.

Sometimes the taut line unties itself or slips.  Or it will slide all the way down until the loop is gone.  Maybe line locs are just easier so you don’t have to fiddle with it.

For the corners of a tent that I really want to torque down, I use ladder locs and 1/2 inch webbing

[Murali C]

Thanks all for the replies.

James – won’t the hair ties break?

Locking up in snow etc – if I don’t camp in snow, that problem goes away.

Can the taut line hitch slip in high winds???

[Jerry Adams]

taut line slip in high winds?

it depends on the cord

if you really push together the three loops of the knot and pull on the two free ends the knot will hold in high wind

you have to try it and see if it works for you.  Some people prefer line-loc or other device.

[Matt Dirksen]

“Can the taut line hitch slip in high winds???”

Absolutely, if it ain’t tied well enough.

But I suspect most of us knot users out there may know how to keep that from happening.

The best thing about knowing how to tie knots is just that: knowledge – the first thing to have with me when backpacking, imho.

BUT Linelocs are great & convenient and much easier in snow, ice & foul weather, (although I personally prefer Lawson’s Bar Tensioners).

Besides, fiddling with a frozen taught line hitch while wearing mittens is a genuine pain in the a$$.

[James Marco]

Murali, Generally, no. They hold up well for 2 years anyway, longer usually. I have only had one break in the past 15 years. It was on it’s last legs and should have been replaced before I used it, but I just got lazy about it. The heavy duty hair ties from Goody work pretty well. I quit using the ones with metal, they are light duty. Usually, the “elastic” dies before the braided sheath after a couple years. I have some 25 pound dumbells and they easily hold these up, I never tried them fully assembled with two, But I am betting most could handle two, or around 50lbs (22kg.)

TaughtLine hitches tend to slip fairly easily on spectra or UHMWPE plastics (Zing-it/Lash-it, etc.) They are quite slippery. A better line for guy lines is <span>https://lawsonequipment.com/Cordage/Reflective-Glowire-p1024.html</span&gt; 2mm line. It is only 250lb strength but is far easier to handle, and, it ties knots well.

[Erik G]

One other advantage of Linelocs is that you can adjust guy lines by their entire length, versus taut-line hitches only being able to adjust down to roughly half the guy line length (without re-tying knots of course).

I actually enjoy learning knots and usually keep a short length of line in a pocket to practice with by the fire, etc. But I use Linelocs for all my shelters. Go figure. :)

[W I S N E R !]

“One other advantage of Linelocs is that you can adjust guy lines by their entire length, versus taut-line hitches only being able to adjust down to roughly half the guy line length (without re-tying knots of course).”

Exactly, that’s what bothers me about them; they cannot shorten to less than half their length without re-tying.  So linelocs provide a little speed and ease in that department.  I use a Solomid and often like to snug the back down tight to the ground while floating the front high…until I want to quickly snug the front down to the ground in a storm. Linelocs mean less fiddling here.

Easier adjustments in the middle of the night from inside the shelter too.

[Ryan Jordan]

In sustained windy conditions (really windy/gusty – storm class winds 40+ mph that last for several hours at a time) – Linelocs prevent any cord-on-cord or cord-on-grosgrain cutting. I’ve had a number of guyline failures through the years as a result of this. It’s a non-issue most of the time, but a very real issue if you’re riding out a storm. This is what caused the guyline failure on the HMG Dirigo during a big storm last spring (video).

Other than the obvious (e.g., don’t use very thin cordage, or very slippery cordage like Dyneema), you can mitigate it a little by making sure all cord-to-cord connections (or cord-to-grosgrain) are locked in place with a knot, instead of a loop (the loop is the culprit, because that’s what’s sliding and cutting). And then, tie your tautline hitch around the stake, instead of the tie out on the tent.

I’ve used cordage from MSR, Locus Gear, HMG, GG, ZPacks, etc. and I’m now in the process of migrating all of my storm tent cordage over to the stuff that Tarptent sells. It holds (properly-tied) tautline hitches very well, is thick enough to work with in the cold, and is rock-solid in a Lineloc.

[Murali C]

Thanks all for various comments. For now, I will keep my lineloc’s:-)

Ryan – that video is awesome…..crazy storm.

The tarptent cordage looks like Kelty Triptease lightline…..

[Ryan Jordan]

Also, worth noting that not all “linelocs” are created equal.

I’ve had the best success with the LL3 in combination with the Tarptent guylines in terms of security – zero slippage in the cold, wind, etc.

[Philip Tschersich]

If you want to tie an adjustable stake knot in really slippery line like dyneema, look up the Blake’s hitch.

If I anticipate the shelter shaking all night due to wind, I will back up my lineloc with a couple of half hitches with a bite (aka a half hitch followed by a slippery half hitch) on some of stakes on the upwind side.

Generally linelocs serve their purpose well; secure and easy to adjust.

[David P]

For the above reasons I also prefer line locs. I float the front of duomid like wisner typically so can lower pole and retension lines right to ground from inside tent if weather turns bad in the night. They are simple and effective. We get a lot of freezing weather and I don’t want to deal with knots about 5 months out of the year (mebbe lazy?) When line locs freeze up  in winter I use my breath to unfreeze. If frozen solid I pour a little hot water on it. I use 2.7mm reflective cord from MLD and ,like Phillip, back it up with a slippery half hitch up against the line loc if tremendously windy. That said, I’ve never actually had the 2.7mm slip in moderate to high winds, I started doing the extra half hitch when I was using line that was too small (2.3mm Zpacks) so I just do it now out of precaution.

Knot tying, especially a good taut line hitch is a truly useful skill and might as well learn how to pitch that way just in case. Don’t not learn to knot lest it’s all for naught. Many tarp users prefer the taut line in 3 season.

[J-L]

I always thought the Tarptent guyline was just Kelty Triptease. Is it something else? It seems to develop kinks easily. My current favorite is the guyline from Yama Mountain Gear – it adjusts easily and hasn’t slipped for me. MLD’s guyline is pretty good too.

[Murali C]

The tarptent one do look like Kelty triptease which is 1.5 mm which should not work with the LL3’s?

The YMG ones are 2.3mm….read somewhere that LL3’s like 2.5 mm and above….though Zpacks website says 2mm – 3mm are good for LL3’s.

David P – did the 2.3 mm’s reflective ones from Zpacks slip for you? I was planning on using those.

Philip – thanks – will try your recommendations.

[Matthew / BPL]

I’ve always liked Lawson’s 2mm guyline in LL3s it some people complain of slipping. I find 3mm to be too tight of a fit. I noticed recently Lawson started making a 2.5mm variation. I’d be surprised if it wasn’t absolutely wonderful.

[Franco Darioli]

Slippery cordage.

This is what I do

Yes it adds no weight or cost and does  take time but I manage.

[Boyan B]

I used to use tautline hitch but in wet and especially cold it is a hassle. For the past year or so I have been using Skurka’s system and it works exceptionally well for me. I keep the lineloks in place mostly so I can sell the tent easier if I decide to do so.

[Matthew / BPL]

To the OP: I prefer LL3s on most shelters except tarps. Tarps require more line and I find that linelocks mean everything gets more tangled because you have two cord ends per LL (unless you pull the line all the way to the end at every tieout) and because I usually use a bowline at the stake end of each line w/LLs. With a tarp (particularly a DCF tarp which doesn’t stretch and doesn’t need much adjustment) I use Skurka’s system which means unfinished ends on the lines and it means half as many ends, compared to linelocks. It’s much easier to bundle up and I find I don’t get any knots or tangling (assuming good line).

My silpoly mid: LLs.

My DCF catcut tarp: Skurka lines.

YMMV

[Paul Hatfield]

Magical thinking regarding LineLoc’s abounds.

In reality, with a LineLoc, the entire tension of the line is concentrated on a knife edge piece of plastic on the interior of the LineLoc. Even with the largest line possible for a given LineLoc, the contact point between the line and the plastic is extremely small. A lot of load on a very small plastic contact point translates to not very much holding power. (Clamcleats are much better in this regard.)

LineLoc’s are easily subject to damage, and the damage is not discernible by visual inspection. When line slips under tension in a LineLoc, it abrades the LineLoc, emitting particles of the plastic resin. (Do a pull test over a sheet of white paper, and you’ll see the particles released.) After a single slip, the holding power of the lineloc tends to be compromised significantly. Thus LineLocs can be a source of trouble in the field, even when not cracked and even when they look to be in perfect condition. (The introduction of aluminum or titanium LineLoc’s would address these durability issues.)

LineLocs are not easily replaced, as they are generally sewn into the shelter. I’m not aware of any repair versions of LineLoc’s, as there are with ladder locks.

Regarding taut line hitches: In practice, taut line hitches rarely have to be re-tired. They can be left tied and attached to the shelter. Polyester-sheathed UHMWPE (ultra-high-molecular-weight polyethylene) line is very durable, lightweight, cheap, and easily replaceable. If a taut line hitch were to slip, it generally causes negligible damage to the line and any damage would be very localized and easily worked around. Because of space constraints, taut line hitches are not suitable for uses where the endpoints of the connection are very near each other. In that application, I would recommend a ladder lock with webbing over a LineLoc. The additional weight of webbing vs line is negligible for short lengths.

[R]

Lawson’s 2.5mm Glow Wire: 4.95g/yd; Lineloc 3: 1.3g.

1/2″ grosgrain: 3.6g/yd; 1/2″ ladder loc: 0.8g

From a weight perspective, there’s no reason not to entirely replace the guy line with ribbon.  Comparing to cord and line loc:

Pros: Lighter; less tangle; no slip.

Cons: It’s nylon, so it will stretch when wet, but this won’t matter w/ a nylon shelter; usually only available in darker colors / non-reflective, but still more visible than thin cord in the same color; bulkier.

There is polyester 1/2″ grosgrain available, in full color options, but no weight or strength is listed by the vendors I’ve seen carrying it – craft/sewing on Amazon.

EDIT: caveat – not all grosgrain will hold in a ladder loc.

[J-L]

From a weight perspective, there’s no reason not to entirely replace the guy line with ribbon.

Six Moon Designs said they did the math: ribbon + ladder locs are lighter for their shelters.

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