Which pack Zero vs Core

[Jerry A]

Looking for a 2 day at most pack.. Zpack Zero and MLD Core..Like the idea of adding pockets on the side from the zero, but looks like the the carry on the Core might be more comfy, looking at the flaps the bottom of the shoulder strap is sewn to, that changes the angle a bit not to ride up pits or side as much.. Anyone have tried both.Thanks again folks..

[Nick Gatel]

They are both stuff sacks with shoulder straps. Comfort isn’t an attribute for a pack like this.

That being said, my Zero has a lot of miles on it and is more than 5 years old. I didn’t expect it to last this long. I don’t see and an advantage of one pack over the other, other than the ZPacks is cheaper than the MLD in cuben, but MLD uses a heavier cuben hybrid and does not offer plain cuben. MLD also offers the Core in Dyneema X. So for me it is 6 of one, half a dozen of another unless you have a specific material preference.

[Nick B]

If Ron offered pockets on the Core it would be an easy choice for me.

I had a Zero but sold it.  It was a good “stuff sack with shoulder straps” but I found that I was hyper aware of the fragility of the standard cuben.  Plus, the Small size was just too large for what I needed to carry.  If I was to go this route again, I would get the XSMALL size in the hybrid fabric.

I replaced it with a 2014 MLD Newt.  I like the added durability of the Dyneema fabric and I find the shoulder straps on the MLD stuff to be a bit more comfortable (I have a 2015 Burn as well).

 

 

[Ben C]

I have a Zpacks “Blast”, which is basically a Zero with several options.  This was several years ago, and they haven’t marketed a straight “Blast” for several years.  It was the standard (non-hybrid) cuben.  My experiences are similar to Nick’s.  It has lasted many years without serious problem.  It’s got a couple of pieces of cuben tape on it but it’s still usually my go-to pack for light trips.  I’ve done a 10 day trip with a bear cannister – tight but worked fine.  It’s about replacement time for it, but it’s been a fine pack.

[Nick Gatel]

If Ron offered pockets on the Core it would be an easy choice for me.

Ah, but that would degrade the philosophical simplicity of the design :)

However, it is something to consider. I need to carry at least a gallon of water on most desert trips and would not have bought a Zero that did not have side pockets for my water bottles.

[Nick B]

Ah, but that would degrade the philosophical simplicity of the design :)

Understood and appreciated.

But, since I don’t use a bladder, and I find that MLD’s shoulder bottle pockets flop around too much, and I don’t want to have to open up my pack every time I need a drink, that pretty much leaves me with  an additional runner’s waist pack to carry water.

Not a bad option, but I believe the extra gear has probably canceled out the “philosophical simplicity of the design” :)

 

[Gunnar H]

Have you considered the KS Ultralight Emo?

http://www.ks-ultralightgear.com/p/ks-imo-pack.html

I have one in TX 07. It´s in the same weight range but the stiffness of the TX 07 gives it a bit of strucure that is much welcome. I have been comfotable with it for day hikes with about 6-8 pounds in it (no hip belt). I would describe it as a backpack, not a stuff sack with shoulder straps. Many options, just make sure to get one of the sternum straps options.

[Matthew / BPL]

The Core appears to be shaped to fit your back much better than the Zero. I’ve never seen a Core in real life so I don’t know how effective the shape is.

[Jerry A]

Mathew.Thats what I was looking at, that it took on a shape, not like a stuff sack with straps..Might have to try one..

[Kona]

+1 for KS ultra lite

You could get a KS 30 and choose your options you want.

[Gerry B.]

I agree that MLD’s shoulder strap-mounted water bottle pockets flop around too much.  I switched to Elemental Design’s bottle pockets and they work great.  Maybe a Core combined with the ED bottle pockets would be an option?

 

[Bob Moulder]

I have the 1700 (28 liter) Core with 2 shoulder strap water bottle pockets and 1 waist belt pocket (I use webbing waist belts), and the medium Zero which is 36 liter, and it is also made of the hybrid Cuben, has water bottle pockets and front panel mesh, so it is basically a small Blast with no frame and minimal waist belt. I find them both comfortable, but then when carrying a 6 – 7.5lb base and only a couple days’ food and 1-2 liters of water, why would they not be comfortable?

IMVHO — and I know there are others who agree — comfort is determined by the way they are packed.

I haven’t used these a bunch, only 2-3 times each, and can’t claim they’re my main bags that I’ve put through the wringer and that I’ve learned all the tricks with frameless packs.

With that caveat/qualifier out of the way, before using these packs on trips I did test a variety of packing strategies and did quite a few short hikes on my local little trail to find out what was most comfortable to me. These packing methods included the CCF back pad (3/8″) using the tiny shock cord on the outside of the back panel to hold it in place; the CCF “burrito” inside the pack; straight-up stuffing of sleeping bag, shelter in stuff sack placed sideways, with food bag and stove on top, cushioned by un-worn clothing; partially inflated air mat flat against the back; partially inflated air mat in the “burrito” configuration. In each case, I was left with an overstuffed sausage that did not follow the contour of my back, tended to flop around and was not really comfortable.

I like Nick’s characterization of “stuff sacks with shoulder straps,” but when doing my testing it finally dawned upon me that if they were to ‘behave’ like packs they would need some vertical pliability which would permit them to conform to the back.

OK, on to What Works for Me:

1. Don’t try to carry too much stuff in the pack. If it is jammed full it won’t be pliable and will assume the sausage shape no matter what you do. If you need a bigger pack, you need a bigger pack.
2. For the main back support and shaping, I use my torso/wide Neoair folded into thirds, uninflated, inserted into the back/bottom of the pack.
3. Normally I don’t use a stuff sack for my quilt, but here I make an exception. I have a roll-top Zpacks stuff sack which I roll-and-compress until it is just slightly smaller than the dimension of the pack bottom. This prevents the ‘sausaging’ of the bottom of the pack.
4. Next is my Duplex in its stuff sack, placed horizontally on top of the quilt. No sausage.
5. Above that is my pot/stove and coffee cup and food bag, using an unworn clothing item to cushion the back a bit more, with Toiletry/FAK/Repair ditty bag on top.

If done this way, there are some ‘hinges’ where the quilt and shelter meet and between the shelter and the other gear on top of that, all of which create that vertical pliability. I get a very comfortable carry up to about 15 lbs with the Core and about 20 lbs with the Zero. Again, I’m not saying mine is the only/correct/best way, but if you’ve tried the other methods and still aren’t totally happy it’s worth a shot. And I prefer waist belts on everything, including itsy-bitsy day packs, but that’s my own little idiosyncrasy that I must live with. ;^)

 

[Nick Gatel]

The Core appears to be shaped to fit your back much better than the Zero.

Yeah, the picture on the MLD website looks nice and the marketing blurb says it is shaped to better fit your back.

That doesn’t change the fact it is a stuff sack with straps, subject to gravity and the weight of your kit will mostly hang from your shoulders. I’ve owned several frameless packs and am familiar with all the techniques to create a faux frame. But it doesn’t change the fact these packs do not have a frame and that is an inherent weakness for comfort, IMO.

That being said, it isn’t a condemnation of theses small packs. The Core weighs between 6 & 8 ounces depending on the size and material. That alone limits what can be done with the pack and how much you can comfortable carry — comfort being defined by the user.

These packs are what they are.

Something for thought: my zero has Cuben straps, a slippery material. The straps are spaced too far apart for my skinny torso, so I have to use a mini-biner and a piece of Tripease as a sternum strap, which is much lighter than the strap I could have ordered. Are the Core’s straps better? I don’t know, but you might want to take that into consideration.

[Robert S]

I would also suggest taking a look at the Zimmerbuilt Quickstep. I know he is known more for his customized packs, but I’ve really enjoyed his stock Quickstep so far for my weekend trips. If there are any changes to it that you would like to make (you may not want/need a front mesh pocket or you may want to add a hip strap/belt for instance), Chris can make those adjustments. The price is a bit steep at 150, but he has sales throughout the year, and a comparable zero would run you about 165 (side pockets, front mesh, cuben hybrid). Just my 2 cents and YMMV, but I really have loved this pack (although I do have some slight adjustments in mind for when this one wears out, but don’t we all?).

[Adam Kilpatrick]

I also have a KS, its very very similar to this

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-2oiGTUCyqEk/VG7hxQo0ZyI/AAAAAAAAEAY/caTWiSmiWHk/s1600/IMGP3110.JPG, but a bigger volume (its close to 40L), plus I have the “jokers hat” option (I wouldn’t recommend it).

Workmanship is great. The external mesh pocket is superb. I’ve used mine mostly on work international travel trips so far, its been on lots of flights stuffed into overhead luggage, etc. I put all sorts of stuff in that pocket, never have an issue with it coming out. Works well with various bottles in the sides. Shoulder straps are good.

I find the shoulder straps on my ArcHaul to be superb though. Attaching them at the top with webbing is a class move…it allows them to conform to shoulders so much better than even and angled attachment. The straps themselves are probably the best I’ve ever used, I reckon, despite being relatively lightweight. They are better than the ones on my KS, though the KS are perfectly fine.

KS will adjust dimensions exactly how you want! So if you are looking for something between sizes (inc back length, volume, circumferece…)that Zpacks or MLD will do, KS is a great option. Esp for the price.

[Matthew / BPL]

Just my $.02 and this is all really subjective stuff here but I have come to similar conclusions as Bob regarding picking however I use a pack liner into which I stuff my quilt, TAR pad and clothing. Food usually goes against the small of my back in a flattened ZPacks food bag. Cookkit goes at the top of my pack, often wrapped in clothing. Once packed, I sort of shove the pack to put a nice bend in it and it just melts into my back.

Nick has far more experience than I do but I like going without a hipbelt with all of the weight on my shoulder if my total pack weight is under probably 16 pounds. From 16ish-20 pounds I’ll use the 1.5″ wide webbing belt that came with my Kumo. Above 20ish pounds I start to think about using my Circuit.

[Nick Gatel]

Belts on frameless packs can help keep it in place so it does flop around, especially in terrain like this

Except for my Zero, all my previous frameless packs had hip belts, but I opted to get the Zero without one, which I don’t regret.

Nowadays I use an internal frame pack on most trips. But I still do several trips every year with the Zero. My comfort tolerance with the Zero is about 12 pounds max. However, if someone is comfortable with 15 or even 20 lbs with a frameless pack, then they are comfortable and we shouldn’t try to dissuade them, and conversely no need to try and persuade someone to switch to a frameless if they are completely happy with a heavier internal frame pack.

[Bob Moulder]

I’m doing a trip this coming Fri-Sun and will be using the Zero because the weather forecast is for extremely benign and decidedly un-winter-like conditions, so it will be more like an easy shoulder-season 2-night quickie.

I packed everything up and photographed it to demonstrate the ‘hinge effect’ that I mentioned above. All three of those areas on either side of the 2 hinges are soft and conform perfectly to my back.This pack is very comfortable and of course fairly light… 13.1 lbs with consumables… 2 full days food, 1 quart of water and a fuel canister. Base is comfortably under 10 lb, more like 8.5-9 lb, and I could easily fit 2-3 days more food. Hard to believe it’s late January!

[Ian]

I have the MLD Core (1700 ci), Burn (no hipbelt), and Prophet.  I’ve never owned a Zpacks backpack but I do own a few of their products (shelters and accessories) and have found their quality of construction to be outstanding thus far.

The core is mostly used as a day pack for me, and the burn is my go-to backpack for trips where I’m trying to limit pack weight.  I shoot for something that’s under 20lbs total weight when I step on the trail, and ideally under 15.

Obviously one of the tricks here is to have gear that is light weight and low volume.  I have cuben fiber shelters that take up more room in my pack than their heavier silnylon siblings.  .51oz cuben seems to be a sweet spot for low volume and low weight, but I digress.

Back to the OP, it’s hard for me to justify taking the Core on an over-nighter when the Burn is sitting just next to it.  For a couple/few ounces more, I find the Burn to be well worth the modest weight penalty.  I’m not looking to get rid of the Core as it still gets used on day trips, but if I ever take it on a multi day trip, it would likely just be to see how light I can go.

I don’t know if he still offers it and you’ll have to check with him, but Ron has previously mentioned on BPL that you can have features removed from the burn.  For example, You could order it without the belt (as I did) and request for them to leave the front pocket or side pockets off of it.

If you do go with the Core, I think it’s a great pack and is indistinguishable from my beltless Burn in the comfort department.

[Bob Moulder]

Ian, you reminded me… I should have mentioned that for shelter I am using the Zpacks Pocket Tarp (.34 Cuben!) and polycryo groundsheet which accounts for significant bulk and weight savings, even when compared to my .51 Duplex.

[Ben C]

Zpacks’s newer packs have the shoulder straps attached with webbing.  I know what Nick is talking about with the straps, but the newer version is a big improvement I think. I leaves the straps more flexible up high.

I think there is something to be said for use of the non-hybrid cuben in a pack of this size.  You can see it in Nick’s photo.  You can keep it really light.  And non-hybrid cuben seems to wear fine at those low weights in such a small pack.

[Bob Moulder]

Zpacks lists the non-hybrid at 4.2 oz and the hybrid as 6.4 oz for size Medium.

My hybrid (also size M) has side water bottle pockets, front mesh pocket, 1″ wide web belt and weighs a tick over 10 oz — and maybe a tick over 11 oz with the waist belt pouch and shoulder pouch — so they’re not exactly porky! ;^)

For some reason the non-hybrid is not available right now….

[Michael]

I don’t even see the Zero on the website at all as of now .. only Arc series packs are listed.

They did update their “cart system” so I wonder if the may some other changes  …

[Bob Moulder]

Hmm… listing here but shown as Out of Stock

I don’t know what that means precisely, hopefully not Out of Production.

[Michael]

Interesting … odd that it is not listed on the “Backpack” page anymore meaning not accessible unless through cached link.

I know that some other retired items like the Hexamid twin and such seemed to head towards retirement this same way.

[Author]

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