Wet feet and 30 Degrees F

[Arthur]

I travel in low cut, non “waterproof” trail shoes and wool socks.  Socks range from thin to med weight by season.  I need to know how to keep my feet warm after stream crossings in cold water and air temps right around freezing.  At air temps of 40F and above, ok, I can manage, but not at freezing. I have plenty of clothing on the rest of my body and I am warm. My feet just plain hurt from the cold.

Ideas?  Thanks, Art

[Mole J]

I also wear similar.   My local hills are mostly boggy and wet underfoot half of the year.

I use breathable waterproof socks over my wool socks in winter. I need to loosen the laces a little to accomodate.

Feet still get cold but not so much, and stay much drier/cleaner.

Tried Rocky Gtx. But the seam hurt my foot.

Sealskinz socks are ok but not durably leakproof.

Tried Hydroskins 0.5mm neoprene socks as recommended by some. Not waterproof and limited comfort when cold.

I prefer British Army MVP socks. No longer made. But available from surplus stores.

Recently tried DexShell socks from Amazon. Similar to Sealskinz, but seem better. Ok so far but only used once. Too warm at present.

[David Thomas]

That’s my set-up: low-cut, non-waterproof hiking shoes with wool or synthetic socks.  Works well for me in almost all settings.  Requires a tweak for frequent stream crossings.  Two years ago, I accompanied Manfred & Sons on the first day of their Brooks Range Traverse.  We crossed the same dang stream about 60 times on the way in.  Then I turned around and crossed it another 60 times on the way out.  45F air temps, 36-38F water temps.  In a few stretches when my feet were out of the water for 30 minutes, my feet would warm up.  Still wet socks and shoes, but warm feet because we were hiking pretty fast.

But with stream crossings every few minutes?  The flow of water through my shoes/socks would carry away so much heat, that my socks, shoes, the water in them and my skin would reset to 38F and warm very slowly from there.

My fix: bring plastic bags.  Make a “dry suit” for your feet, albeit it a slightly leaky one.  So it becomes a wet suit, but it still works.  Some kinds of newspaper plastic bags work well.  If yours do, buy a roll off your newspaper delivery person.  Better, in general – large enough, tougher, somewhat flexible – are the plastic bags around loaves of bread – Wonder Bread, OroWheat, most breads in fact.  Save them.  Ask your friends to save them.  Put them OVER your socks but inside your shoes before your first stream crossing.  Even if there’s a small leak and your socks get wet, at least the water won’t FLOW through your socks so the wool/poly will maintain some insulation value like a wet suit does.  And, for a mild conditions, your socks will stay pretty dry.

If you keep them for a while after the crossing, your socks will stay dry while the outer shoe slowly dries.  If you remove them immediately, they will have keep your feet somewhat dry, but you’ll wet-out your socks and they will take longer to dry.

You can get more sophisticated about it and wrap the plastic bags over the top of your socks and secure them with a rubber band or a loop of small-diameter shock cord (I keep spools of it around for replacing tent shock cords and holding trash bags in place and stuff like this.  PM me if you want some).  Sized right, the loops is quite snug around your calf but looser when you slide it back to your ankle (or take it off) after the stream crossing.

Those same bread bags are good emergency gear for Fall or high-elevation trips.  If you get an unexpected snowfall and you’re in your summer shoes, that plastic-bag trick is really effective in keeping your feet warm for the hike out.

[Roger Caffin]

Two things you can do, plus one thing which usually does not work very well.

The ‘not work very well’ idea is any form of GTX shoe. They are good for wet grass and snow travel, but I have little joy with them for river walking.

One thing which helps enormously is warm trousers (with fast walking). Keep your legs warm, so the blood going INTO your feet is warm, and your feet will recover fast.

The other thing is the plastic bags David recommends. You can collect tons of bread bags over time, and they work very well. OK, they also tear fairly easily, but no matter. As David notes, they stop the flow-through.

Cheers

[Stephen M]

On days like that I put on dry socks at camp and put on Rocky gtx socks on over them.  I then open up the laces on my runners and put them back on, the heat will dry out the runners a bit.

[Ryan K]

I also need a good solution for winter trail running.  Definitely want to hear more about your experience with the Dexshell socks.

This year’s winter was so mild in Boston I was able to run/hike almost every winter weekend.  I often went sockless in my non-waterproof trail runners, sometimes using my thin synthetic office socks, which was fine with <1 in snow and ice patches, but when it rained or the trail had a layer of slush, my toes were wet and freezing.

I tried bread bags with skin-sock-bag-sock, which felt very thick but not horribly uncomfortable.  Bag next to skin was almost painful – feet felt on fire with pins and needles. Bag on the outside didn’t work – no way to keep it secure.   But anyway, halfway through the hike, one of the toes must have worn a hole and now I had a bag keeping cold water against my foot that couldn’t drain!  Never again.  I just bared running through cold water for the last few wet winter hikes, but I was eyeing the Dexshell socks on Amazon for a while before Spring shifted my pondering and wallet to other more important concerns.

[Justin Baker]

If your feet get colder than normal and you want to keep your feet when wet in cold weather, you want really thick wool socks. Use the thickest, tallest mountaineering socks you can find. I mean so thick you need to buy new shoes to fit them. Wool socks will insulate while wet but you need extra insulation to compensate for them being wet. Make sure your shoes are roomy even with the super thick socks, any tightness will compress the loft of the socks and mess with your circulation.

Similar to what roger said about warm trousers, tall socks work well. Keeping your legs warm helps a lot to keep your feet warm. Darn tough makes some great knee high thick socks. Wear those with shorts and you will look super cool.

You want your shoes to be roomy and to allow for lots of muscle movement. You want a large, roomy toe box in your shoes so your toes can freely splay out when walking, allowing good circulation and muscle movement. You also want your shoes flexible for good muscle movement. Muscle movement really helps to keep your feet warm. As an example, if you cross a cold stream and just stand there on the other side your feet will stay cold, but if you start hiking quickly your feet will warm up very fast (in my experience). It’s also why traditional mukluk winter boots (like an insulated moccasin) are so effective in keeping your feet on the move warm compared to a stiff boot.

I have also had very good luck with rocky goretex socks when walking through snow. Obviously lots of stream crossings is a problem.

[Ryan K]

Gah, the thought of wearing thick, soaking wet, wool socks actually chilled my bare feet right now under my desk.  This makes me realize that my feet might in fact have been warmer (not warm, but warmer) wet when I went sockless. Nothing to soak up any water, shoes quickly draining/squeezing out every drop (Merrell Trail Gloves – big toe box, loose stretch cord lacing) and running/hiking fast to maintain lots of blood flow.  Thanks to the best waterproof-breathable fabric there is – skin!

[Justin Baker]

That’s not how it works Ryan. If you have something that holds a lot of water next to your skin, it will feel really cold. If you have a fabric that holds minimal water against your skin, it won’t feel that cold. A fluffly wool sock with nice long terry loops on the inside presents minimal surface contact with your skin, so you get a lot less thermal conduction than other fabrics. Anything nice and fluffy is good for keeping warm when wet.

Thick wool socks drain well and your body heat quickly pushes moisture away creating a drier microclimate next your skin. In order for that to work you need excessive amounts of insulation to make the air near your skin warm enough to start pushing moisture away.

[Jerry Adams]

A wet suit keeps you warm.  Once your body warms up the water next to it, it will quit being cold, as long as the water isn’t constantly flowing away and being replaced.

[Ryan K]

I get that a thick wool sock will keep the water away from my skin and keep my warm.  But isn’t the wool sock still holding a ton of water in the outer layers, weighing me down? I see this might work with intermittent wet periods (stream crossings), where the water will eventually squeeze out.   My main need was when continuously running/hiking in cold water – e.g. trails of slush or standing very cold water.

[Roger Caffin]

the thought of wearing thick, soaking wet, wool socks actually chilled my bare feet right now under my desk.

That might be your THOUGHT, but the practice is different. A few steps squeezes most of thew water out fast, after which the damp wool socks start getting warm.

Never mind the theory: practice (experience) says it WORKS.

Cheers

[Arthur]

Thanks everyone.  Being a very long time scuba guy, i was sure that neoprene would help, but it did not.  It only cuts down on the water exchange in the sock, but still allows enough to keep it cold.

So, it seem the idea here is to either go sockless or go to heavier socks +/- plastic bags and walk fast.  I am interested in any updates on the Dexshell socks.  I read in the instructions not to fold or crease the sock hard as it might damage the membrane. That makes me think it is only a matter of time before they really leak.

Art

[Ben C]

Bigger shoes are warranted too.  When you start putting on bigger socks and some kind of water barrier, it can get a little bulky.  Your shoes will feel tighter, and the blood will not flow as well, leading to cold feet.  Size up for winter to make room.

[Anonymous]

Been giving this some thought lately too.  I can see David’s suggestion working decently, but i’ve also wondered about other things.

*****This not a suggestion to others, i repeat, not a suggestion to others since i haven’t tried it yet myself*****

But something i was wondering about, was wearing a combo of hiking sandals, with a thinnish Merino-synthetic blend sock, with a layer or two of polypropylene socks over them.  Maybe reversed, but once the merino sock dries enough, to put that next to skin since it’s more comfortable and way less odoriferous than polypropylene (wearing PP socks too long, especially if wet, makes me concerned about developing foot fungus infection).

Even breathable shoes take awhile to dry, especially in certain conditions.  But with a sandal, there is not much material to stay wet, and socks next to the skin tend to dry faster.  Both Merino and PP are some of the most decent materials at staying warmish while wet, though they work in different ways.  PP dries noticeably faster though, especially if wrung out.  But Merino provides better overall skin comfort, so thin Merino plus thicker PP seems like a winning combo.

Hollow fiber polyester would be a decent substitute for PP.

There is convection cooling to consider while wearing a sandal and even a few layers of socks.  I suppose if it becomes an issue, then a sock like covering, made out of a thin, UL, wind resistant material would help.  Such a material will still dry faster than typical shoe material.

 

[Justin Baker]

Justin, I’m not a sandal user but I don’t think it would be the best choice for keeping your feet warm in wet and cold environments. If we are going to assume very wet conditions – lots of rain, lots of puddles, and lots of stream crossings, combined with cold weather, then your shoes and socks won’t dry out because they will be getting wet faster than they could ever dry. Now with a sandal, there will be some evaporation which means evaporative cooling, but with no chance to ever dry things out. Probably best to have a shoe that slows evaporation which will provide a lot of warmth. In my experience cutting off evap is one of the most effective ways to stay warm when you get soaked.

[Ryan K]

When summer hiking straight up and down (not across) stream beds, I used to hike in sandals like Teva’s (sockless), but still I’ve found my mesh trail runners dump water much better than those cushioned sandals and are 100x better than the sandals before and after I’m in the stream.  Superlight sandals like Xero Shoes don’t have the water absorption problem, but those are too minimalist for me. But I do occasionally see people hiking in Tevas and similar sandals with thick wool socks.

For my scenario (near-constant splashing through ~33-40F water/slush), perhaps 2-3mm ankle-length neoprene socks is the best option?  At ~$15 a pair, it’s worth a try next winter.  This thread has made me less interested in considering more expensive WP/B socks that will likely eventually fail.  Better to let your feet get wet but insulate a layer of body-warmed wet fabric against the foot like a wet suit?

[Anonymous]

Hi Justin, i mostly agree, which is why i wrote this earlier, “There is convection cooling to consider while wearing a sandal and even a few layers of socks.  I suppose if it becomes an issue, then a sock like covering, made out of a thin, UL, wind resistant material would help.  Such a material will still dry faster than typical shoe material.”

I’m also interested in dry fast, reticulated open celled foam for this application.

[Roger Caffin]

 Better to let your feet get wet but insulate a layer of body-warmed wet fabric against the foot like a wet suit?

My thoughts entirely.

Cheers

 

[Justin Baker]

WP socks work great if you understand their limitations. Your socks do get damp from sweat and water can get in over the top. Unlike waterproof shoes, you can take your wp socks and wool socks off to cross a stream with the safety of a protective sole and put them back on after. If you do accidentally get water over the top of the sock, you can change into dry wool socks and be fine (the inside of my rocky goretex socks absorb very little water, it’s the same 3 layer construction as a goretex rain jacket). With a waterproof shoe you have the entire lining and foam insole soaking wet.

I usually only use them in snow as I don’t get cold feet dealing with just rain/puddles. But I have also used them for a several mile approach on a wet trail in the rain on my way up to snow and they worked great, socks were damp but not that bad. On that trip I post holed into slush and got my socks wet. I was able to change into dry socks. Can’t do that with waterproof shoes.

I have also crossed numerous small streams in my WP socks as they go up higher than many mid top boots.

[Matt Dirksen]

Perhaps it’s been mentioned before, but here’s a link to a good perspective & additional suggestions in the comments section:

http://andrewskurka.com/2012/minimizing-the-effects-and-aftermath-of-wet-feet/

[Mike M]

I have to agree w/ others, that in my experience, tall and thicker wool socks work pretty well in wet/cold conditions.  This has been my go to system for the last two Bob Marshall Opens- a multitude of river/creek crossings, trails that have turned into flowing creeks, cold rain/wet snow, multiple snow crossings- basically 14-16 hours/day of wet feet.  This year I brought neoprene (Hydroskins) w/ very thin merino liners, but never felt the need to break them out.  I’ve used them a couple of times and thought they worked well, but I never put long mileage days on them, so unsure how they would effect my feet as far as hotspots/blisters.

[Todd Stough]

you guys could always try boots.  eek the horror.  :)

Granted they may not be the best hiking boots but I wear insulated wolverine work boots.  I wear a fairly thick wool sock.  Yeah my feet get wet but they stay warm.  I’d want to take them off if doing a deep stream crossing but walking through water that is not over the top is just fine.  I’m sure plenty of the other insulated hiking type boots would also work well.

[James holden]

theres really 3 realistic options (maybe 4 i havent tried neoprene yet) …

1. WPB shoes … your feet WILL get wet eventually … but then the WPB layer will prevent cold water from rushing in and warmth rushing out with every step … i also want to say its partly a myth that WPB shoes dry slower, it depends on the construction, i have a pair of TNF WPB hedgehogs that dry faster than inov8 trail runners because of the lack of absorbant materials … and in those 30-40F constantly wet temps shoes simply DONT DRY, it takes around 3+ days for my inov trail runners to dry indoors in my garage at ~50-60F inside temps
2. WPB socks with a thin liner sock (as thin as possible) … the only real solution for keeping yr feet mostly dry, and the most expensive .. you want the thinnest liner for quicky drying and to preven sweating … even if you get damp/soaked with water ingress, just wring out the liners in cam and sleep with em, theyll dry overnight … turn the wpb socks partially inside out in camp and wipe the inside down … think how some winter/mountain boots have an inner liner and an outer shell for drying, this is the same … note that some folks use plastic bags but for anything technical this can be slippery and having yr foot move inside the shoe is less than ideal
3. a thick fuzzy and fluffy sock … personally i prefer fleece or a synth/wool 50/50 blend for quick drying, 100% merino doesnt dry quickly … but the key is for it the be fluffy like a bunny and fuzzy like a bear, they should also not be snug fitting (just like fleece for the same conditions) ... this keeps the moisture away from the skin, and the fluffy insides dry to less damp with movement … with fleece sock and an open weave, i can wring em out and dry em off overnight … you can find such socks easily at the local department stores for pretty cheap … note that the water WILL come in and out with every step so if constantly around puddles or and in wet snow/slush your feet can chill pretty easily

as to bare feet .. 30F can mean slush and snow around here … bare feet in slush is not that fun …

;)

 

[Brad Rogers]

I am interested in hearing more thoughts on the GT Sock setup.  I spent two weeks with planned wet feet in Alaska last year just drying my feet at night and putting wet socks back on in the morning.  Temps were from 40-50 most days and down to 20-30 at night.  I didn’t have any real problems but my Salomons were soaked and didn’t dry the whole trip.  I am hoping to go back next year and have entertained the idea of trying GT socks with my trailrunners either during the day or in camp after changing into dry socks.

How would you size the Rocky socks?  Size up?      What about shoes, are your normal shoes sufficient or do I need to size up?    Socks, I normally wear no cushion wool socks from Darn Tough would a thin synthetic sock (like Drymax) work better under the GT sock ?

 

 

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