We have the next cuben fiber and it's amazing!

[Ross Bleakney]

@Don — Cool. This should put downward pressure on the price of Cuben. It should (over time) also result in more reasonable prices at the finished tent/tarp level. I may have missed it, but I don’t see that yet. I think in general it is tough to see, since the cost of the fabric is often rolled into the cost to produce (and design) the product. As I mentioned, the Six Moons Skyscape is one of the rare examples where you can see pricing based on the materials, as there are three versions which are largely identical except for fabric type.

I guess I can the enthusiasm for this as well as the logic behind the post title. When I think “Next Cuben Fiber”, I think of something as exiting as when Cuben Fiber was first used for hiking. This represented (and still represents) a major drop in weight compared to the alternatives. This, to me, is not quite the same thing. This doesn’t seem to be significantly lighter, just significantly cheaper. So “next Cuben Fiber” means basically “just as good as Cuben Fiber, but cheaper”, which is a very good thing.

[George H]

Well put, Ross.

IMO, there are 2 immediate realistic avenues of improvement in the Cuben weight class:

A less expensive material resulting in less expensive products, but inheriting Cuben’s stigma of issues large enough to be a deterrent. The 7d of this thread?

A material in the Cuben price range, but successful at eliminating almost all the known issues, some of which are long term reliability, compressed bulk, crease durability, puncture resistance, storm survival.

Both could be more successful than the sail laminate we use now.

The question I take away from here: why are these two GG offerings still so expensive if the material indeed is half the cost of Cuben?

[Ross Bleakney]

@George — To answer you question, I would say lack of competition. Some people will jump on this, just because it appears to have all the advantages of Cuben, without the bulk. These are the same folks that normally buy stuff made out of Cuben. There are also people who will shy away, waiting for other, early adopters to weigh in about long term durability, storm worthiness, etc. But GG doesn’t have to price their product based on the cost of material anymore than Apple does with their iPhone. For all we know, GG has been barely scraping by, having trouble making ends meet, but now they are willing to take a chance with a new material, and are using the excitement (and the superior nature of the product — i. e. less bulk) to help pay the bills. I have no qualms with that. I just think it will take a while before cost savings trickle down to the retail, finished product market.

[Don Burton]

GG is taking a chance on this fabric in my opinion. Being first, they’re going to capitalize on it. If it’s succeeds I’m sure we’ll eventually see other companies adopting the fabric and selling it at lower costs. Here’s a pic of the bathtub ground sheet I made to pair with my Deschutes tarp. Per recommendations from the MYOG forum, I made it with the sil side on the outside, facing the ground. For my purposes it was waterproof. Many night I woke with the outside of it completely wet from condensation. One thing I noticed is that if I packed it way damp, that when I unpacked it that it would be “stuck” together like Saran-wrap. Like peeling it apart.

 

[Nick Gatel]

Hopefully it will do better than GG’s two-person, 8 ounce, SpinnTwinn spinnaker tarp.

oops.

 

[Sam Farrington]

It helps to distinguish between nylon ‘stretch’ and nylon ‘sag.’ Stretch is the elastic quality that recovers its shape in a flash. Sag is the lack of tension in the fabric that results from increased cold and humidity, and allows the canopy to sag, greatly decrease the usable area, and make the occupant(s) wet. And sag does not recover until the weather warms up. We have all seen saggy tents, but usually not in the manufacturers’ photos.

It is not clear whether the 7D ‘custom’ material used by GG is like the
Rockywoods 7D, or nothing like it.

It is also not clear what the tear strengths are.

Nor do we have any aging tests on the 7D materials that show whether what begins at an acceptable level of HH holds up or not. We have seen repeated examples of ‘not’ in Richard’s tests posted on this site.

But, not sure if we have to answer all these questions before buying a shelter or ordering the material for MYOG. From .5 oz Cuben to 1.25 oz 15D nylon or polyester is a bump up of .75 oz per sq yd. Some of the tarps, as well as many tent designs, run less than about 8′ by 9′ or 8 sq. yds. That’s around a 6 oz bump-up to the weight of the whole canopy. The rest of the weight is in reinforcements, etc., which with the newer PU/SIL coatings, so long as at least one side of the fabric has the PU, can be strongly bonded on without stitching, more strongly than any of the Hysols with Cuben.

There are enough tests already posted here by Richard to show some good choices in 15D 1.1-1.2 oz (including coatings) materials. For me, the less than 6 oz weight penalty of having a much stronger shelter, more reliable in severe storms, is not significant considering the importance of shelter.

A greater concern is the amount of sag if the material is nylon, and whether a 15D polyester, with its minimal sag will hold up in severe weather. Sag tests are easy to do with plastic embroidery loops, and perhaps some can send samples of some of the better HH (after simulated aging) polyester materials to Richard to see if he can shed any light on tear strength. That would be helpful to know, as a no-sag shelter will be a lot more comfortable and a lot less trouble, but if and only if the strength is acceptable. Maybe we can make some choices without waiting 5 years.

[Mina Loomis]

Not a technical person, unable to fathom all the details here, but I do have one question.  I’ve had polyurethane coated nylon tarps and flys and silicone coated ones (silnylon).  And I sell tents at REI so I’ve needed to learn some things about the fabrics.  One thing I’ve learned from reading and also from personal experience, is that poly coated nylon tends to get sticky and smelly and delaminate from (I assume) chemical breakdown within 5-6 years even with good care.  Silnylon does not seem to do this.  I have 2 Integral Designs silnylon tarps that are going on 12 years old and have had heavy use, that are just fine.  I’ve retired numerous poly-fly tents over the same time period for coating failure.

So my question is, would this new combination material’s poly coating (one side?) be subject to the poly failure I am talking about.  I realize that as a new material we don’t have enough time for a durability track record, but would the technical aspects lead someone sufficiently knowledgeable to expect it to be subject to the same phenomenon?

[Sam Farrington]

On 8/29/16 I stated above in this thread that: “Nor do we have any aging tests on the 7D materials that show whether what begins at an acceptable level of HH holds up or not.”

Then today I found Richard Nisley’s 12/7/15 post re his test of the Rockywoods 7D done almost a year earlier on this thread: https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/108230

So I apologize for the error, and hope no one was seriously affected.
The results of Richard’s test are very encouraging. And the fabric may be less vulnerable to high winds if used in a shelter with an inner wall, and supported by a carbon fiber pole frame, as distinguished from a tarp supported by one or two upright poles and a goodly number of perimeter tie-outs. I think it is certainly worth an MYOG project to find out.

Being a big fan of Richard’s many posts, I’m sorry I missed this one.

[Larry De La Briandais]

Not all Poly coated flys delaminate.  I have one that is 30 or so years old and it is perfectly fine.  :)

 

[Sam Farrington]

Being curious about Gossamer Gear’s fabrics that Gary reported about, I contacted GG, and they were kind enough to provide the following info for the ‘One’ tent, the ‘Twinn’ tarp, and their fabric ‘groundsheet’:

“Tarp: Custom-formulated 7d high tenacity nylon blended sil/pu coating waterproof to at least 1200mm.
Groundsheet : Custom-formulated 10d high tenacity nylon blended sil/pu coating waterproof to at least 1200mm.
Tent body: Custom-formulated 7d high tenacity nylon blended sil/pu coating waterproof to at least 1200mm.
Tent floor: Custom-formulated 10d high tenacity nylon blended sil/pu coating waterproof to at least 1200mm.”

Richard’s test of the Rockywoods 7D showed over 1500mm after simulated aging. He weighed it at 0.8 oz/sq/yd, although my scale has it at a bit under 0.75 oz/sq/yd. The “periodic increased thread density … to create a ripstop effect” is also an innovative step.

Did not receive a fabric weight from GG, but estimate it at somewhere around one oz/sq/yd.
As GG states, the tent floor and separate ground sheet are 10 denier fabrics, so should be slightly heavier.
Guessing the “blended” coating means that the coating on one side contains a mix of Sil and PU.

(Note to MYOG folks: To find out how bondable these newer coatings are, guess we will have to experiment with both Sil and PU adhesives. For the fabrics that are sil coated on one side, and PU coated on the other, I have found the the PU side will bond very strongly to the PU coated side of another swatch with no detectable peel, so unsewn reinforcement patches are the best I’ve seen.
Sil to sil bonds are peelable, however. I think a PU to PU bonded reinforcement patch will provide a place to sew attachments to a RW 7D canopy. However, SeamGrip remains the thinnest non-foaming PU adhesive I’ve found, and have had no luck diluting it with solvents mentioned here and on MYOG, since they weaken the bond. So just apply as thin a coat of SeamGrip as possible.)

[BlackHatGuy]

Thanks Sam, and thanks for all the tips, ideas and experiences, especially in the MYOG forums/threads, over the years. Much appreciated.

[Opogobalus]

A year after ops initial excitement do we have any more insight? Doesn’t seem to have changed the game yet:)

[Jacob]

It doesn’t seem to have changed the game, but maybe it has affected it? As someone new to backpacking in 2017, the state of fabric development is confusing. I research shelters/packs for the first time, see expensive light weight ‘cuben fiber.’ I learn what that is and see people praising it, back in 2010-2012. But the company that makes it has changed ownership and it is incredibly difficult to find information from Dyneema on these fabrics. Likewise with Dimension Polyant’s x-pac fabrics. If 5+ years ago these were supposed to be generation 1, where is generation 2? CiloGear claims to have a 100% woven Dyneema with laminate that is “lighter than 210d pack cloth” with “abrasion resistance equivalent to 11 oz vinyl” but the fabric itself doesn’t seem to be openly for sale for MYOG. I’m still not sure on all the differences between the different nylons and polyesters. I learned from this thread that the coated polyester fabrics I’ve seen around are actually newer than cuben fiber! Maybe everyone has been too scared to invest in generation 2 super fabrics out of fear that some cheap sil-poly or pu-nylon will be 90% as good for 1/3th the cost or something …

[Colin Krusor]

I wonder if the next significant advances in lightweight fabrics might have to wait until the sizes of super fiber yarns comes down. As soon as Dyneema, Vectran, or any of the para-aramids is available in small denier yarns, I bet Ripstop By The Roll will be all over it.

As an aside, while we’re holding our breaths for superfabrics, there are a handful of materials advances relevant to backpacking on the horizon, a lot of them in composites. Phthalonitrile is poised to replace epoxy in many carbon fiber parts. It is stronger, prepregs are indefinitely stable at room temperature, and it tolerates temperatures higher than aluminum. Phthalonitrile resins are available now from companies like Maverick and JFC Tech. Its ingredients are cheaper and handling is simpler than epoxy, so it will become less expensive than epoxy. All-carbon fiber alcohol stoves will be possible.

PIPD fiber looks like it might finally creep into the market in the next 8 years. If so, many carbon fiber parts (tent poles) will be replaced by equally strong but much more impact tolerant navy blue PIPD composites. PIPD will also be a major development for textiles, if it is available in small yarns.

A new generation of phenyl-substituted carborane silicones, and the related PCSA (polycarboranesiloxane acetylene) rubbers are already in use in aircraft. Like phthalonitrile, these new silicone rubbers tolerate temperatures as high as some metals. These plastics, along with minimally-useful PBI, are the only market-ready plastics to reach 500 Celsius (about 1000 F). Sil-kevlar fabrics with a carborane silicone coating could be used for the sides of a collapsible cook pot or a chimney boot for a hot tent.

Just saying, there seems to be a herd of nerdy materials developments on the horizon for backpackers.

[Pierre Descoteaux]

Very cool info Colin. Thank you for sharing it!!

[Roger Caffin]

Some of the plastics Colin mentions impress the heck out of me for their high temperature performances. Strength and cost remain to be seen. Mind you, I don’t believe ‘they’ have got all the kinks out yet, but it’s early days in their development.

That said, we have yet to see how they will go against nylon as a fabric. They will need to have some elasticity to be really useful in outdoors gear. The lack of stretch has limited Cuben F.

Then there are three more questions: how well will a fabric take coatings, how easy will it be to cut and sew such a fabric, and of course COST. I can see a great future for ceramic scissors here!

Cheers

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