We have the next cuben fiber and it's amazing!

[Nick Gatel]

That’s an interesting quote and I’m sure he has some real world experiences with 7d fabric, but MLD was also late to the .5 cuben party which many of us here and Zpacks have felt all along was more than strong enough for our purposes. No disrespect intended but you can’t have people complete the AT/CDT/PCT with .5 cuben without acknowledging that with care, it’s fine for most backpackers.

Maybe 7d is the future. Maybe not. Fortunately we have early adopters while the rest of us wait and see.

Ron Bell isn’t a disinterested 3rd party. If he isn’t using 7d his competitors that are using it might siphon off potential customers. I’ve been happy with my Cuben shelters. I have a cat cut 8 X 10 tarp that is around 6 years old and my main shelter for around 5 years was a Hexamid. Last year I replaced the Hexamid with a much larger Deschutes CF, which is probably the last shelter I will ever buy. Even if someone develops a miracle 2 ounce shelter I’ll stick with what I have. It is light enough and works well for me and I know it is completely waterproof.

[Michael M]

I’m not sure the Nano line has been replaced by the Escapist. They appear to be a completely a different product line. For one the Nano is pyramid shaped not A frame shaped.

Glad to see this 7d material I suspect it would be just fine for many folks. The Nemo Hornet I use now has a 7d fly, I have had no issues with it for all of the trail use its been on; primarily in Spring and Summer conditions. It has endured heavy rain and decent pacific coast wind. I’d like to see more use of alternative fabrics frankly, where are the Silpoly shelters! I have a 15d Silpoly fly on my 2p and it’s fantastic, light, strong, doesn’t absorb water and it keeps its original pitch all night.

[Hoosier T]

I think the tiny cottage guys like Simply Light have less visibility and can bring products to market using brand new materials with no track record. If the material turns out to be a bust, they might only have tens of customers/products to deal with, not hundreds or thousands like the MLD and SMDs of the business. Their entire reputation won’t be ruined by being a first-adopter of a new material if it happens to fail. You never know, MLD could have someone out there thru-hiking the AT right now using a ‘mid prototype in Silpoly so they can gain some confidence in it’s durability. I know Gen at YMG is going to consider using it based on a conversation I had with him. After all, the stuff is really very new in comparison to even Cuben.

[George H]

This is a fascinating discussion, with lots of interesting input. I appreciate especially Hoosier’s comments.

My personal take is to, willingly, accept the risks of an UL/SUL unproven or sketchy design in almost all areas – except shelters. What can go wrong with a prototype quilt? You might get colder than expected. Big deal. Beer can vortex burner failure? Make a little stealth wood fire and go back to the drawing board. Latest pack not meeting expectations? Still gonna get you there and back.

Shelter rips on a stormy night? Mists all day when tent bound in a deluge? Shot full of holes by hail? These are not good scenarios in the big ranges out West. Even proven UL designs can be mishandled and fail.

People, be careful out there!

 

[Andrew Waight]

I love new materials, and I wholeheartedly support testing them out in the advancement of backpacking science. My main problem with cuben fiber is the exorbitant cost but the main problem here is at 230$ for this GG tarp I am not sure why I wouldn’t just buy a .5 or .75 cuben grace tarp for only 60$ more. OTOH Jared at simply light will make me a 15oz membrane silpoly tarp for 116$ and that material is quite frankly amazing…withstood 5 days in heavy cascade rains remains taut and one shake and its totally dry.

[John Barber]

I’m so confused (Holding hands over face turning my head) I was trying to make up my mind on a Soloplex or Duplex. Now a new kid on the block, what is a guy to do? Ultralite verus durability. I want value without trade offs is there such a thing? Outdoorgearlaps.com tested the Big Anges Fly Creek platinum tent, is that the same 7D as the CG’s new tent? Durability was the weakest score on the platinum tent.

[James L]

John,

I think you are mixing apples and oranges here..

From a design standpoint, ANY open ended catcut tarp simply IS NOT in the same shelter class as a Solomid, Duomid etc in terms of all weather protection.

As a matter of fact, for about $60 more tan from GG tarp, 1(factoring shipping) I would take a .51 Cuben Zpacks Hexamid Solo @ $299 and 6 oz over a cat cut tarp any day if I was going solo. No matter what material the cat cut tarp was made from:)

[John Barber]

James,

I think Gary’s set-up is sweet, I’m new to backpacking other than about 700 miles on the AT last year. I don’t think i have the experience yet to know what works and what doesn’t as far as tarp setups go. I’m still at a stage where I’m undecided in which direction to go that will have the best outcomess for me. Last year it was a big agnes fly creek II, This year I when to a hennessy backpacker hamock, J-R-B 10* snivler top quilt, and a 20* under quilt. I loved sleeping in the Hammock, but hated seating out a rain storm under the J-R-B 10×11 hex tarp. In the last 2 months I’ve learn so much about reducing pack weight, My pack with 6 days food is down to 22 pound with 6 days food, no water. last year it was 30-35 pounds with food and water on the AT for 5 days. I owe it all to reading the forums here and watching youtube. The STS nano mesh tent i liked because it had the tub floor. The 7d silpoly tarp maybe great stuff but time will tell. I like you would perfer the heximid over the tarp set up. But i know I would like the simplicity of the plex tents more. There just so many trade offs and choices.

[JCH]

TLDR; My experiences are very similar to yours. I bought a Duplex and never looked back.

Unless the modular aspect of being able to pitch only what you need is of paramount importance, I found the fiddle-factor of multi-piece shelters to be far more pain the pleasure.  Add to that that I much prefer side-entry shelters, and my year long tarp etc. experiment was a decided bust.  My experience with hammocking prior to the tarp mimicked your own.

Obviously HYOH, but…If you want the smallest footprint and are willing to deal with packing/unpacking you gear in the vestibule during rain, the SolPlex will suit you well.  I very much enjoy having all my gear in the shelter with room to spread out/organize. IMO, the Duplex is a gift from the gods.

[Bob Moulder]

But i know I would like the simplicity of the plex tents more. There just so many trade offs and choices

Full disclosure: I’m another unapologetic, uber-biased fanboi of the Duplex…

Yes, there are many other choices. But for me nothing ‘checks as many boxes’ as the Duplex — Light, spacious, quick-pitching, bug-free zone of contentment. I enjoy watching the mosquitoes, flies and gnats trying in vain to get at me.

And, in a shocking development, I just checked and Zpacks is claiming a current lead time of 1-2 weeks(!) for tents and packs; I guess cutting out all the custom stuff really is improving the production timelines.

[James L]

I think it also has to do with asthetics and a persons comfort level with regards to shelter style.

If a person wants views and airflow, a cat cut tarp is great. And, if pitched low with adequate ridgline length, it provides decent weather protection.

But for me the Hexmid really ticks off the boxes for a lightweight shelter provided someome is willing to invest in obtaining the skillset to learn to pitch it well. Which really applies to almost any shelter..

Its a side entry,sets up with one trekking pole. Its insanely light,moderately priced for a shaped cuben tarp @ $299.
Pitched high with the beak rolled up,it provides great veiws..No zipper to fail or maintain. Put a bug net inner inside and it offers complete protection especially in a low storm pitch.

The cat cut tarps are elegant and graceful shelters, I just feel they lack too much shear performance to ride in my pack when I am in open country and might be facing some truly nasty weather.

[Ross Bleakney]

Getting back to the fabric discussion, I think the biggest advantage (and this was mentioned earlier) is bulk, rather than weight. My guess is, just like Cuben, there are trade-offs with weight and durability. I doubt you can get much lighter than the very lightweight Cuben without having the same durability issues. So, for example, if I have the option to buy a new Skyscape X, and it is just about as durable, and an ounce lighter, I probably won’t trade in my old one. But if it is significantly less bulky, then I might.

In general that is probably the biggest improvement I could make in my system — bulk, not weight. If everything I brought could be compressed into a tiny brick, I would travel really well. But just as the little things add up to significant weight, a lot of my items add up in terms of bulk. Don’t get me wrong — I’m doing quite well — I just know this is the biggest improvement I can make.

[Gary Pikovsky]

1st video of “The One” (same material, full 1P tent) is out today.

[Thomas Willard]

Thoughts after watching the video:

• It looks like a condensation machine.
• I don’t understand why the non-door side doesn’t have more mesh to allow for ventilation and then lengthen the fly portion.
• Too much slope on the head and foot to be comfortable for anyone over six foot.
• Once you add a pad and bag to the mix, the footbox is going to be wet continuously from the touching.

[JCH]

And, in a shocking development, I just checked and Zpacks is claiming a current lead time of 1-2 weeks(!) for tents and packs; I guess cutting out all the custom stuff really is improving the production timelines.

Every page in the “Shelters” section of the site now says that Duplexes are in stock !!!  It doesn’t take a genius to figure out on which side ZPack’s bread is buttered.

[Hoosier T]

I need some help understanding this. GG is selling a non-cuben shelter for $450 and it’s not made by American workers. Is that correct? Zpacks sells very roomy 1P shelters for $100 more that are made with much more expensive materials and are made in the US. I just can’t look past greed here. It just doesn’t add up…Am I being too cynical?

[Matthew / BPL]

100% agree

[JCH]

Am I being too cynical?

Perhaps…Perhaps not.  The right to have your own opinion, “right” or “wrong” as it may be, and to make your own choices is what ‘Merica’s all about.  We all get to evaluate every potential shelter and choose the one that checks the majority of our personal boxes :)

Gary P LOVES his new GG tarp and STS inner-net. I’m happy that he found something that works so well for him, but I would not choose that shelter.  Neither would I choose the One, for many reasons (including the ones you mention).  The Duplex checks all my boxes.

[Jennifer Mitol]

you know Hoosier, when I look at how expensive some of the cuben shelters are and gasp – then I look at REI or Backcountry.com and see a Hubba Hubba, or an Exped shelter, or a Big Agnes – and those puppies ain’t cheap.

 

[James holden]

I need some help understanding this. GG is selling a non-cuben shelter for $450 and it’s not made by American workers. Is that correct? Zpacks sells very roomy 1P shelters for $100 more that are made with much more expensive materials and are made in the US. I just can’t look past greed here. It just doesn’t add up…Am I being too cynical?

basically thats much of the dead bird stuff out there …

but thats another whole can of BPL worms

;)

[Eli Zabielski]

The Zpacks Hexamid Solo Plus, no mesh, ($345*) is 8.02oz with guylines. The current design is super solid in the rain from any direction, and can potentially be used by two people provided one of them is rather short. Is the GG Twinn large enough for two people to use and keep similar rain protection?

Just reading through this thread, it seems like this fabric is on par (like Ron Bell said) with the cuben that most shelters are made in currently. I am excited about that ~.25oz/sqyd theoretical fabric, though!

*Yeouch! Cuben Fiber has gotten expensive. My original Solo Plus was $215 3 years ago.

[JCH]

Yeouch! Cuben Fiber has gotten expensive

Hmmmm…Duplex in .74 is currently $615. Paid $610 for mine in Nov 2013, and the current model is much more refined/feature rich.  I guess that’s what they call the “early adopter tax”.

[Anonymous]

True Jen, but generally speaking, those companies you mentioned have much more over head than a smallish company like GG.  Mainly in the amount of employees employed, and i’m not including the Asian factory workers. But the various “middle-people”.

So yes, the discrepancy of prices between two companies like GG and Zpacks is, well, interesting, and i lean towards agreeing with Hoosier and Matthew though i would be hesitant to use the specific term greed.

But based on that difference alone, i would be more apt to buy from/support Zpacks than GG, both from practical and idealistic/philosophical reasons.

The more our society supports and honors the non greedy and the reasonable business people, the more businesses on a whole will get the message, and eventually it may start to change some of the stuck/limiting beliefs of our culture (e.g. “greed is good”).

[Ross Bleakney]

>> it seems like this fabric is on par (like Ron Bell said) with the cuben that most shelters are made in currently

If so, I don’t understand the excitement. The biggest drawback with the most common type of Cuben is the cost. This doesn’t appear to be any cheaper (it may be more expensive). Is it more durable or more waterproof? If so, that would be nice, but most Cuben tents are durable enough, and plenty waterproof (I’ve had no problem with mine). It seems like the only possible advantage is bulk, which is nice, but hard to get too excited about. Until someone sells both (Six Moons style) and describes the advantages and disadvantages, I won’t be spending money on the stuff.

[Don Burton]

Ross,

This 7d fabric is about half the cost of cuben fiber at least from a retail standpoint.

This 7d fabric discussed is $13/yd at Rockywoods. Cuben fiber is generally $26/yd. I made a bath tub groundsheet with this 7d fabric and used it on my JMT thru hike paired with my cf Deschutes. I was very happy with it in that capacity.

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