??Vapor Barrier or WPB Bivy as Emergency/Overnite Snowmobiling Shelter

[GARY HEBERT]

I’m an avid Peak Bagger/UL 3 season (ocassional winter) Hiker & Snowmobiler in the Northeast.  Have limited experience/knowledge with hiking with Vapor Barrier Mitts/Gloves, clothing concepts. Recently I unexpectedly overnighted when when hiking with just an emergency foil bivy sack & dayhiking layers & puffy insulation on ~60F nite.  Slept in backup dry baselayers, hat, gloves, which of course got pretty damp by morning & kinda chilly.  Inside of foil bivy became soaked with droplets of course. As nite progressed I added WPB windshirt & pants, then later puffy which helped keep my damp baselayers somewhat dry. In hindsight I should have started with just WPB layers to minimize baselayer brushing against droplets to keep as dry as possible.  This got me thinking about my emergency snowmobile overnighter plans. I carry spare dry clothes & a foil bivy. But what was tolerable at 60F might be lethal at -20F  or -30F overnight.  Stripping off multiple clothing layers to jump inside Vapor Barrier Bivy/Hotsac or Foil Bivy might be fine in summer fall. But in Winter I’m not sure how realistic that is.  But keeping my snowmobile layers on inside a foil bivy might also quickly wet all my layers in  a far less forgiving environment.  I also own a couple WP/B Bivies and silk sleeping bag liner bags I could bring snowmobiling instead. I’m rethinking the snowmobiling emergency overnight shelter in place plan.  If able I’d keep walking along the snowmobile trail all night to keep warm, hoping someone comes along. But if injured or exhausted or just too stormy I need emergency shelter in place overnight option. Looking for input/ideas at how to modify/approach it in what could be a very cold overnight well below zero before windchill.  Weight/size is not super critical though I wouldn’t carry a sleeping bag or anything that bulky.  Thoughts/ideas???

[GARY HEBERT]

This could possibly include vapor barrier clothing, as part of my emergency shelter instead of vapor bivy.  I could quickly strip off some/most/all clothing and don VP clothing as innermost layer, add outer layers for insulation and/or storm protection, and maybe jump into WPB bivy which should allow my outer clothing to breath while still offering considerable wind/freezing rain/snow protection in addition to my jacket & snowpants, boots, helmet.

[Kevin B]

Looking forward to other’s responses, and I’ve wondered the same question but never posted it.  Here’s what I’ve done so far:

• My sledding buddies never go alone anymore, groups of 2 to 4 sleds.  More machines and wrists to break, but you nearly always have a ride/tow back to the truck.(for context we ride a rural mountain where we don’t ever see other sled tracks other than our own, and we usually start around 11am and finish between 10 pm and 2am; 65-100 miles in western  forested powder backcountry riding conditions)
• Fire starters and canister stove (hot dinners, snacks and beverages)
• Insulating pad
• 9’×5′ Oware alphamid shelter
•  SOL foil bivy
• Oversized montbell true-baffled down parka. 18 oz. iirc
• Spare set of base and mid layers, gloves, beanie, and socks (I sweat a lot and often switch these layers out on a normal ride)
• SPOT device
• Map/GPS for alternate route finding needs
• Snowshoes with tails
• My more experienced buddies in the group have all had to walk (10 – 15 miles)off the mountain at some point in the past 20 years for some reason or another (most happened when riding solo and/or when working for the feds with inferior sleds).   The general motto is keep walking if you can, if not build a big fire, but I can’t help from adding the above mentioned shelter, pad, and a bunch of synthetic layers from my backpacking wardrobe to my HMG 2400 when I join these guys on rides.  Seekoutside hot tent set-up has been talked about, but goes against the groups plans to evac on foot if at all possible and our machine-cooling breaks nor dinner break are long or exposed enough to justify erecting a hot tent for the break.

[GARY HEBERT]

i hear ya.  Im dumb n ride when i can whether solo or not.  Hugely increases risk, depending what goes wrong, miss a turn, break down, crash on nonpopular trail, injury.  2 YEARS prior snapped primary drive shaft for no reason, early eve walked 2hours before caught a ride back to sled (10 min!) and they towed me out. Last year hit a tree and wallked out 8 miles in full snowmobile gear. both were chilly but clear nites. i know im dumb riding solo. that aside i now appreciate how tiring walking all nite could be in sniwmobile gear in the best conditions.

i carry 10 essentials etc for fire option etc. but WHATS realistic emergency overnite shelter ootion?

guessing id get warm initially climbing into foil bivy fully dressed. but later would prove a huge mistake?  better to use breathable bivy? and switch to dry clothes of course. maybe w vapor barrier clothes as baselayer.  or would foil bivy be ok at very temos – until i climbed out anyway??

[Edward John M]

I’ve had mixed results using the SOL Pro bivvy which is supposed to be breathable. I don’t think that this is an area where anything other than the very best WPB bivvy bag you can afford is applicable.

However if you have a sleeping bag then using a large VB liner makes sense if the clothing you have is synthetic and you can vent some of the excess vapour. I’ve done some hard bivvys at -8C wearing just my wet daytime clothes, my L7 jacket and a windproof coated sack and it wasn’t pleasant. A similar circumstance bivvy a week later with my Goretex bivvy and a very LW summer sleeping bag was surprising comfortable. If I had to choose I would use a sleeping bag with a VB liner and a waterproof shell layer. Better to have both tho.

-8C is uncomfortable; but I would not have survived a -30C nite with that minimum gear set on either occasion, not sure it this helps you tho?

[Mark Verber]

my experience with vapor barriers is that they aren’t particularly useful until it’s consistantly below freezing.  they function when there is just a minimal gap between barrier and your skin. an featherweight base is ok, better is against the skin. you have to expect anything inside is going to get soaked.  Everything else goes outside the barrier.

Vapor barriers do boast warmth but they aren’t magic,  add around 10-15F,  remember you need around 8x the insulation when sleeping compared to working hard.  For me the big advantage of a vapor barrier is keeping moisture out of my insulation on longer trips. I have a few notes about vapor barriers at the end of my base layers notes.

[Edward John M]

“I carry 10 essentials etc for fire option etc. but WHATS realistic emergency overnite shelter option?”

My bold for emphasis.
A bit out of my area of expertise but something I need to know for myself for 2020.
The very best that the budget will allow for but if you make an assumption that the snowmobile clothing is protecting you from the cold and the wind at -30C then you need to double that thickness of insulation and get a cocoon of still air around you as well.
A good bivvy sack; a good LW down sleeping bag and some plastic bags for a VB liner coupled with a CCF pad for insulation from the cold snow coupled with a PLB would be my thinking.
The “expert” on Northern survival was Mors K, he said you need to have 40mm of clothing and a windproof at a minimum and he carried a double down parka as a back-up also. A parka with 8 ounces of down in it is pretty warm and very compact when stuffed but the budget option would be one of the US surplus L7 linebacker parkas, those are sized to go over combat gear and body armour and work well as a Big Mother over-parka; cheap enough, warm but not compact.
Please note that this is part conjecture, as my expertise is wet-cold such as we find in Australia and Downunda my “survival” gear is oriented to synthetic insulation, fleece and shelled polyesters and my back-up sleeping bag for day trips is a thin LiteLoft bag only rated at 14C these days but enough in conjunction with a bivvy and clothing to survive a couple of nites

[Bruce Tolley]

Can you bring an axe, tarp, and shovel and then build a shelter trench. Use some branches, the tarp for the roof. With practice, you should be able to build one in less than two hours. You do need 3 feet or more of snow depth, or the skill to build walls above the level of the snow.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

This is the same question I face when solo backcountry skiing with  just me and my SPOT beacon.

I carry a 40 liter internal frame hunting pack with the following emergency items:

1. 10′ x 10′ light nylon tarp (not silnylon)
2. 2′ x 2′ closed cell foam inside pack
3. fire making gear and tiny ESBIT stove & very small 1 1/2 cup pot
4. synthetic puffy top and bottoms
5. emergency bivy (non-breathable)
6. headlamp & batteries
7. mitten shells
8. DIY synthetic insulated overboots (for over my Scarpa 3 insulated ski boots
9. down vest W/ DWR treatment on the down.
10. fleece balaclava in addition to winter hat of some sort
11. food -> Knorr soup, 6 energy bars, 1/4 lb. chocolate candy, cheese sandwich, PBJ sandwich.
12. 2 liters of water at beginning of the trip, 1 liter in hydration bladder (insulated hose) and 1 liter in wine bota under my parka.
13. first aid kit
14. 50′ paracord cut in 10′ sections
15. multi tool
16. whistle on removable sternum strap buckle

Skis, poles & found sticks hold up tarp in mid style W/ small opening at top for ESBIT fumes to escape. Then it’s closed to a 3″ opening for the night.

[Edward John M]

There is one important thing that is stressed in training, you have to practice.

No matter what’s in the bag you have to know that you know how to use it, so a few practice runs with minimum gear somewhere relatively safe can be a good idea.

My kit is similar to Erics in intent, only the details differ

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