Training for the Uphill Athlete

[W I S N E R !]

Has anyone else read this? Good stuff, currently using it to embark on some new running/fastpacking goals.

[Aubrey W. Bogard]

Yes; I found it more useful for my purposes than Training for the New Alpinism.

[Josh J]

Yup!

Great book,  they know their stuff.  I’ve been following their principles for awhile now!

[W I S N E R !]

Zone 2, Zone 2, Zone 2….

I’m amazed at how much my volume has increased, without injury or burnout, by dialing back. I was definitely in the “overdoing it” camp according to their system (as well as Maffetone, Attia, and all the others that advocate this approach).

[Bonzo]

I’m reading it currently, along with Training for the New Alpinism…and like you, I’m amazed at how effective Zone 2 can be.  I was also amazed that I didn’t have an accurate picture of where Zone 2 was even located, until doing the max heart rate test.  Working to stay in 2 and occasionally in 3 has helped me a lot; I still suck, overall, but I’m making improvements now.  I’ve also found the information on rest and nutrition to be valuable, although I’m learning that my personal nutrition requirements are somewhat different from the standards.  Overall, yes, it’s a very helpful book.

[Josh J]

If you follow them strictly its based on your AeT (aerobic capacity)  and your AnT (anaerobic threshold). Ideally you want them to be within 10% or less of each other.  So yes in the beginning it’s going to be zone 2,but once you reach the 10% it goes to zone 1 90% of the time and occasionally zone 3.

 

They also line out muscle endurance pretty good too. Which goes hand in hand with cardio

[W I S N E R !]

If you follow them strictly its based on your AeT (aerobic capacity)  and your AnT (anaerobic threshold). Ideally you want them to be within 10% or less of each other.  So yes in the beginning it’s going to be zone 2,but once you reach the 10% it goes to zone 1 90% of the time and occasionally zone 3.

This is where many others I’ve read (Maffetone/many tri coaches) simplify and argue to just keep the bulk of workload <AeT, whether that’s technically in Zone 1 or 2. I think the 90% Zone 1 they advocate in TftUA makes a lot of sense for elites…who can actually move quite fast at Zone 2 and thus take a good pounding that actually requires some recovery, but I’ve heard pretty good arguments that the rest of us are good pretty much anywhere under AeT (1 or 2) with some occasional HIIT thrown in. (I’m right around 10% AeT vs AnT so I’m not convinced I need to intentionally be way down in Zone 1 yet…but I find Zone 1 happens naturally enough depending on the course I’m on, especially on the bike).

Anyhow, I’m not a stranger to base miles (first double century in ~2005, first marathon in 2006), but all of this has really rekindled my interest in building the largest base I can…and doing it a bit slower. I can see a huge difference in recovery…Too many of my previous workouts were too hard (I instinctively head for the steep stuff).

[Josh J]

@WISER!

 

Thant’s awesome!! I’m still working on my 10% last I knew I’m still around 14-16%…  but considering when i started training i was way out of shape and was something like 24%….. plus a full time job and small kids on top of everything and getting injured and sick multiple times with out being able to train for a week straight doesn’t help….

 

but i would agree for us weekend warriors staying below AeT for your training is going to pay dividends in the long run!! I know i’ve noticed a huge benefit from it!!

[Josh J]

the other thing one may want to read and look into is the Oxygen Advantage by Patrick McKeown

[W I S N E R !]

That’s great its working for you.

Strangely, I took this approach for about 6 months by accident…I was nursing an injury and had to keep things slower. And a few months in I started noticing I was actually making gains by slowing down…which allowed me to increase volume and do more back-to-back.

Also finding AeT, for me anyway, is somewhat sport specific. My cycling pace is definitely more competitive than my running pace while <AeT.

[Josh J]

i’m sure it’s sport specific.   different muscle groups between biking and running with overlapping obviously but i’m sure it changes again with cross country skiing ect…

are you using a chest strap HRM?

i was unemployed when i started training and was able to put in the time and saw my greatest gains then i started working and well… plateau or fell off slightly….

[W I S N E R !]

Yeah, I use a chest strap and an older Garmin Forerunner 230 when on foot and  a Garmin Edge when cycling.

What I find interesting about all of this, and why I posted in the first place, is how many people will be considerably humbled by the relatively slow paces that <AeT requires.

[Paul S]

Yes, very good read with sound advice. Totally agree that a lot of athletes (even elites) don’t train enough at relatively slow paces, where most of the real gains by adaptation are made. We tend to not pay enough attention to recovery either. It’s pretty simple: consistent low intensity training plus adequate rest = improvement. We tend to be impatient!

 

 

[Bonzo]

What I find interesting about all of this, and why I posted in the first place, is how many people will be considerably humbled by the relatively slow paces that <AeT requires.

Running at a slower pace is damnably hard, for me; it’s taken me awhile to figure out, but my natural, steady pace on mild up-and-down trails is faster than a Zone 2 pace allows: I end up in Zone 3.  So I have to try to slow down, but that throws me off considerably and has actually led to several injuries…so I’m always trying to stay at a slow, steady pace that doesn’t cause me to hurt myself.  It’s not easy in any form of the word…but it definitely works.  Now, finding a shoe that I like and that I don’t absolutely kill inside of 200 miles…well, that’s another story entirely.

[W I S N E R !]

my natural, steady pace on mild up-and-down trails is faster than a Zone 2 pace allows

Same here, this is the humbling part, especially for people that are used to pushing hard (Zone 3+) for extended periods of time.

Then there’s training with a weighted pack. At 40# I can stay in Zone 2 pretty easily at a brisk pace…though on steep uphills I obviously slow down. Finding the right terrain/pace/weight etc. to stay in zone gets a little tricky but is coming with time.

 

[Josh J]

coming from someone who was extremely out of shape, staying in zone 2 has never been an issue! lol

of course i’ve never been fast or a long distance endurance person until recently either….. well still working on the speed

they do mention that alot of even some of the fittest people will have ADS and find slowing down difficult…. only way to know is to know your AeT and AnT.

[W I S N E R !]

they do mention that alot of even some of the fittest people will have ADS

Rich Roll had Peter Attia on his podcast recently…both very accomplished endurance athletes for those that don’t know them. Rich mentioned getting totally humbled and dropping to a ~10:30 mile in order to stay in Zone 2…but that after a year of training in primarily Zone 2, he was able to stay <AeT at a <7 minute mile.

[Josh J]

That’s crazy!

The hardest part if you want to improve at a decent rate or even fast,you need to put in lots and lots of volume. Ie long duration as much as possible.

I believe Steve House mentioned he was working with a guy who made huge progress in 3months but he was also training 20hrs a week!

Before I started working again I was putting in a consistent 5 for a short period 8hrs a week and had made good progress but now I can get around 3.5 to 4 without killing myself,  in other words waking up at 4am going for a run, going to work, pick up kids, make dinner,  get kids to do homework,  get them in bed, spend some time with the wife,  go to bed by 930/10 and repeat Monday through Friday,  oh and let her go for a run in as well…… nope…. not happening

[Mark Verber]

I haven’t read Training for Uphill so don’t know it’s protocols. I agree that staying in zone 2 is humbling. I struggle staying in zone 2 on uphills.  I just want to press through, especially when there are a bunch of switchbacks.  One of the things that has helped me is setting my Garmin to alert me when I depart from zone 2.

What I saw produced the best results for me training has been  a lot of zone 2 + a couple of zone 5 intervals sessions / week.  The nice thing about zone 2 is that I could get a significant amount of it while working:  doing phone meeting while walking outdoors or zoom meetings using a treadmill desk or bike on a kickr.

Intervals we 2-3 times / week. The goal was to get into zone 5. Typically little intervals 12x (1min threshold+, 1.5 min active recovery), or sometimes reverse tabata 8x (10 sec max, 20 sec rest) followed by sub-threshold for 30 minutes.

[W I S N E R !]

What I saw produced the best results for me training has been  a lot of zone 2 + a couple of zone 5 intervals sessions / week.

In addition to strength and mobility work, this is exactly what Dr. Peter Attia recommends for longevity.

[Author]

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